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| Who is Man of Sin | |
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| Topic Started: Jun 21 2007, 10:50 AM (452 Views) | |
| Midwest | Jun 21 2007, 10:50 AM Post #1 |
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Who is "that man of sin"? 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition "and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" It's clear that "that man of sin" and "the son of perdition" are one and the same, but who are they? The above verse is the only verse in Scripture that discusses that "man of sin". We will consider one additional verse for "son of perdition" later. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? "so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God" Can we get to know that "man of sin", the "son of perdition", better by finding out more about where he "sitteth" - that is - the temple of God? Let's try the KJV search tool from the Blue Letter Bible to see what we can find out. Using the scriptural adjacency rule of hermeneutics for "temple" and "temple of God" reveals the following: 1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are. 1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. So we learn that the bodies of regenerate believers are the temples of God. Scripture offers no other option than our bodies for the location of the temple of God. Nowhere does the Lord redefine the term. The term "temple of god" only occurs 8 times in scripture and all in the New Testament. Twice in Matthew in reference to the actual temple to which Jesus refers. Twice in 1 Cor (the other is reference to the temple of the Holy Ghost) and once in 2 Corinthians. It next occurs in our target verse from 2 Thessalonians, so it is crystal clear what "temple of God" 2 Thessalonians is referring to. Finally the term occurs twice more in the figurative language of John's VISION in Revelation. To use these two instances from John's vision, to nullify the plain language of the verses above, would be an affront to the shed blood of Jesus Christ and one of the most important concepts in Christianity. As unimaginable as it may seem, some that readily recognize a new covenant, and know where the temple of God is, are actually clamoring for a rebuilt temple where Jews would once again engage in animal sacrifice. This would be a restoration of the Old Covenant and an affront to Jesus and His perfect blood attonement for our sins (the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world). It would also nullify a boatload of scripture. Here are two examples: Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Mark 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. To believe that the temple of God resides anywhere other than in the bodies of regenerate believers is purely a product of doctrine. Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. But how can the "man of sin" sitteth in a regenerate individual? Well we all know that there are none righteous and we are all sinners. So we know that Satan can have influence in Christians lives. Even though we are guided to know what's right, sometimes temptation is irresistable. We are not likely to find Satan at an atheist convention since he already has them in his back pocket. So shouldn't we be on the lookout for Satan to be hanging around the Church, doing everything he can, to cart off Jesus potential goods? Satan is the author of unsound doctrine. The "overcommeth"ing in the second chapter of Revelation is about overcoming unsound doctrine, not Satan. Satan is a pipsqueak. He can have no power over us if we audibly renounce him in the name of Jesus Christ. He is bound. But if we underestimate his power, as feeble as it is over born again believers, we might find ourselves in hot water. Let's explore just how. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 1) When pondering the aspects in the verses above, consider a Christian that proudly declares he is a "self-made man". While this may be a little simplistic, and perhaps seem somewhat unfair, consider how it measures up to scripture. 2) What about when we are driven by our egos? We know what God wants: Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Yet sometimes we march off in lockstep with Satan at the helm, knowing full well what is right. Perhaps even pointing our fingers in judgment of other persons to boot. "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God" 3) Consider the slim majority of nicolaitian bishops in the Episcopal Church "House of Bishops", that ordained a homosexual priest as bishop, in spite of the requirements clearly detailed in scripture? Professing themselves to be wise enough to know better than God's Holy Word, they went exactly contrary to it on virtually every point regarding the qualifications for bishop, in respect to the individual they ordained. Did they exhault themselves above all that is called God? John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Were they acting as GOD? Taking God's place by reinterpreting God's Holy Word to fit this world? For those who aren't familiar with God's requirements for Bishop they can be found directly on this link to the BLB. http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Ti/1Ti003.html#1 After reading those verses, consider that the priest they ordained as bishop, had divorced his wife, left the home of his wife and two minor daughters, shacked up with his homosexual squeeze, and was living in that admittedly non-celibate relationship, when he was ordained. Should it have been a surprise then, when he checked himself into alcohol rehab a few years later? Just like the bishop related scriptures indicate, it would seem he was prone to the "snare of the devil". The falling away, and apostasy of the Church, has been going on since 1948, punctuated by the founding of the World Council of Churches of that year, which is well known for spending Church funds to prop up tin-horn dictators in communist countries. Let alone ecumenism. Also marking our entry into the "time of the end" was the Everson decision in 1947 and the so-called "separation of Chruch and State" (had only been brought before the courts on two other occasions in the prior 150 years ("Original Intent" Barton)), followed by the McCollum decision in 1948, which ended religious instruction in schools. Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven. It is difficult to see the falling away, or apostasy, if we believe that the man of sin is some indistinct individual feature of the future, as a result of our failure to understand where the "man of sin" sitteth. 4) Some Christians don't hesitate to proclaim God's judgment on those of our Jewish Bretheren, from whose eyes the Lord has not yet lifted the "spirit of slumber" (and for some will not until the fulness of the nations comes in), and don't yet recognize Jesus as their Messiah. You will find no shortage in the Church that will state flat out that Jews are headed to perdition if they don't recognize Jesus. In my parents generation this would have been unthinkable. At worst they would have chalked it up to a mystery, since they knew that the Jews were God's chosen people, and He had an everlasting covenant with them. But as the Church has moved deeper into the falling away, beginning about mid-20th century, things have changed. Consider the Christian doing the judging of our devout Jewish Bretheren: Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out! Has the Christian that proclaimed judgment on our Jewish Bretheren "opposeth" by going directly against what we learn from God's Holy Word? Did he "exalteth himself above all that is called God?" Let's look to scripture for a possible answer: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And by so doing "shewing" himself that he is God? See below for Strong's on "shewing" ("to point away from oneself"). "himself that he is God"? Did he take God's place by standing in judgment as God? Has that regenerate Christian allowed Satan, aka that man of sin, aka the son of perdition (only other reference in scripture to son of perdition is Judas), to sitteth in his temple of God? Does it even occur to the 20th century Church to take an introspective look for the man of sin, or is it too distracted picking up a torch and pitchfork and chasing after a silver screen boogeyman? 5) Here is an exact manifestation of this section of 2 Thessalonians. Speaking in tongues is a gift of the spirit. Some Churches understand this as a blessing, and with all appropriate gravity. Some Churches view speaking in tongues more casually. But this is serious business. THE BIBLE IS VERY SPECIFIC ABOUT THIS. 1John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. If we don't test or "try the spirits" we are inviting Satan right into our congregation, and encouraging him to remain seated in that individual's - temple of God - if the tongues are coming from an unclean spirit. (Note: When tongues are to be tested in a born again individual, it is the spirit that has to be tested, not the person.) Not uncommonly these spirits, that sitteth in the temple of God - the regenerate Christian - and right there in the congregation, are found to be unclean spirits. Sometimes when they are tried, and the spirit is thus found out, the person that had been speaking that tongue can fall to the floor in spastic convulsions, hands curled up etc. There are some excellent sources to help us get to understand the spirit world in which we live. Read "Bondage Breaker" by Neil Anderson. This book is written by a Christian counselor regarding his years of experience with how evil spirits can haunt regenerate Christians lives, often unrecognized by the individual, and causing painful grief in that person for years. We also learn that many persons that house these spirits, and were well familiar with them, thought they were of God and the Holy Spirit, when they were demonic. THIS IS WHY IT IS IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND WHO THE MAN OF SIN IS. These unclean spirits generally enter by inadvertant invitation. 6) Regenerate believers with multiple personality disorder sometimes have a host of spirits, some unclean, while others operate in the capacity of guardians, or protectors, doing their best to maintain order within the community of alternates. In the vast majority of cases these folks were physically or sexually abused at extremely early ages and their alternate reality was their only means of escape. "Shining Man With Hurt Hands", by Ellis Skolfield is about his online ministry helping these poor folks with multiple personality disorder, recover their monominds, through the power of the Holy Spirit. Mr Skolfield spent over 8000 hours in online chat with MPDs toward that effort. He worked with one sufferer that had 350 alternate personalities. This book moved me more deeply than any book I have ever read. It will offer you a view straight into the spirit world. It is available FREE in PDF directly at this link: Shining Man Are some folks so doctrinally preoccupied with picking up a pitchfork in one hand and a torch in the other, running to and fro, looking for some future "man of sin", some - someday - "son of perdition", that they haven't taken a moment to glance down and notice that they're naked? 2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. "shewing himself that he is God." Strong's: http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm shewing New Testament Greek Definition: 584 apodeiknumi {ap-od-ike'-noo-mee} from 575 and 1166;; v AV - approve 1, prove 1, set forth 1, show 1; 4 1) to point away from one's self, to point out, show forth, to expose to view, exhibit 2) to declare, to show, to prove what kind of person anyone is, to prove by arguments, demonstrate When Christians make judgments in regard to other persons, particularly when judging the condition of another's heart, like Christians that tend to be "wise in their conceits" regarding our Jewish bretheren for example, have we then assumed the role of God, since we cannot know God's judgments? When we judge others don't we exhault ourselves above God by so doing? Have we then seated the man of sin? Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out! "the son of perdition" We can learn a little more about the "son of perdition". When we do an adjacent hermeneutic search http://blueletterbible.org/index.html for "man of sin", we find the above explored verse from 2 Thessalonians plus one more: John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. Jesus is speaking about the apostles here, and not having lost any except - the son of perdition - Judas. Now "that man of sin" who will be revealed, from the line in our study, is also "the son of perdition". Should we consider that as being as narrowly defined as Judas? I suppose we could, but might we then consider a broader sense of something like a spirit of betrayal, paralleling Judas works? When we sin don't we betray Jesus? We can say that we didn't do it with malice, that we lost control, but is that an excuse? Regardless of the temptation we are still responsible for our actions. The result is we still betray Jesus, because we do the opposite of what we know He wants. Did Judas act with malice? Judas betrayed Jesus for money. Is it unusual for Christian men to betray Jesus for money in today's world? Pulling the fast business deal, making the fast buck on someone else's back. Did Judas betray Jesus because he did not expect a consequence? Could he have guessed that Jesus would perform a miracle and get Himself off the hook? This becomes more considerable when we realize that as soon as Judas saw the real consequences transpiring, he tried to undo the deal by giving the money back. Then when the full gravity of his transgression was realized and Jesus didn't save Himself, Judas hanged himself. Consider the dishonest business deal, or taking unethical or unfair advantage of a person or group for money. Wouldn't this seem to be worse than Judas betrayal, because the party engaging in it knows full well what result to expect, which is dishonest gain, or he wouldn't have been involved in the first place? Which of these examples is the greater transgression? What about cheating on a payment? Or declaring bankruptcy? In a broader sense, a Bible search reveals that Jesus is often referred to as the Son of man, or Son of God, so who would qualify as the "son of perdition" better than Satan? Who "opposeth" and "exalteth himself" above God more than Satan? Matthew 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I [Satan] give thee, [Jesus] if thou wilt fall down and worship me. This was Satan offering Jesus his own crooked business deal. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition "except there come a falling away first" While some Christians are looking for a future falling away, I am over 50. Times have certainly changed and most people who are my age or older who will take a look at the changes we have seen in our lifetime would have to admit that the falling away has been occurring right in front of us. Lets take a quck look at some of these changes. Socializing was far less common than today, except perhaps in fellowship with one's Church. Folks might take a stroll and visit with neighbors up and down the block on a warm summer evening, and kids could be found visiting with a neighboring widow, enticed by the prospects of fresh baked cookies. The middle class was so huge it seemed like the whole world was in it. Norman Rockwell was painting images of our American landscape for the Saturday Evening Post covers, (I for one certainly miss those days but we can’t turn back the clock) which must surely look like works of fiction to today's youth, unless, per chance, they are home-schooled and live out in the country without TV. Everybody, whether Christian or Jew, and even the secular community, did their best to at least appear to be decent upright members of the community, regardless of their strife. Leave it to Beaver was a prime-time show. It taught kids valuable life lessons, particularly in homes where the parents were not especially equipped with the parenting skills, by exploring issues and circumstances that might come up in every day life. It warmed the hearts of both young and old alike. Today's prime time is characterized by American Idol, where the whole world idolizes young performers. At sporting events they invite former famous players that the fans idolized previously, to appear in the flesh for their fans to idolize anew. Other idols include the next door neighbors Porsche, his fancy boat, motorcycle, or perhaps his nicer-than-thou's house. Church attendance is down in many denominations, exampled by the Episcopal Church, whose nicolaition majority in their House of Bishops ordained a homosexual priest as a bishop. Churches in Europe have been dead for decades with many being converted into Mosques. Religious "practice" for some that call themselves Christians, rather than being described by a dynamic relationship with their Creator, is limited to shuffling into Church on Sunday, or maybe just on Christmas and/or Easter. As we watch the Ten Commandments removed from courthouses, and public displays of relationship with our Creator banned, many Christians are sitting back in their lazy-boys watching Desperate Housewives, looking for a falling away at some point in the future - when we would seem to be in the heat of it - perhaps even near the end of it - today. Many may not see the falling away because they don't understand that the "man of sin" - the "son of perdition" - is setting up shop in their temple. LOOSED FOR A LITTLE SEASON Satan was cast down into the bottomless pit but was to be loosed a little season. Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. Within the linear-historic context, confirmed mathematically(see Day = Year thread), the Christian era would be the period in which Satan is cast down and shut up, because Jesus defeated him at the Cross for all time, through Jesus' perfect sacrifice. Interestingly, during the reformation there was a very high profile possession in Europe, where the Catholic and Protestant Churches competed for weeks over restoring the child. After that, there were very few accounts over hundreds of years, until 1949. This was a high profile case of a St. Louis boy who was possessed, and this story eventually formed the basis of the movie "The Exorcist". Since the beginning of this "falling away" detailed above, and Satan being loosed for a little season, there has been no shortage of possessed folks both inside and outside the Church, and today books on the occult and the new age movement, outsell the Bible. The New Age and Satanist movements are huge. MORE ON TESTING The spirit that is speaking in a tongue through the regenerate believer, has sometimes been shown to be unclean as scripture warns. In this case, "the man of sin", "the son of perdition", the spirit of antichrist - Satan, is sitting in the temple of God, "shewing himself that he is God". Ask the spirit - not the person - to confess that Jesus Christ the Son of God IS come in the flesh. An atheist, Muslim, or evil spirit, can readily agree that Jesus Christ did, has, or was, come in the flesh, simply because it is a widely recognized historical fact. If a spirit seems to be elusive and says something like "Jesus Christ did come in the flesh", or "I am he", try "Are you the Holy Spirit of God the Father who sent His Son Jesus Christ, who was crucified died and was buried, and was risen in the flesh, ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father? |
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Rom 1:16 " For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth...." Please visit Fish House Ministries | |
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| Wil | Jun 22 2007, 12:08 AM Post #2 |
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Midwest you're entitled to your view but I don't really have the time or inclination right now to answer each of your points so I'll just leave it as I disagree with most of what you've said, this passage of scripture still remains to me one of the clearest evidences in scripture that the Antichrist is an actual person yet to come. |
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| Ham | Jun 22 2007, 11:41 AM Post #3 |
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Are you saying that the apostasy of the Church (has been going on since 1948), is the son of perdition (destruction)? Cf. 2 Thess 2:3, is used to describe the man through whom Satan acts to rebel against God in the last days. (he, Him) 
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| Midwest | Jun 22 2007, 02:54 PM Post #4 |
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Yes the church has been falling away since 1948, slowly at first but the closer we come to the end the faster the church will fall.
Who would qualify as the "son of perdition" better than Satan? Who "opposeth" and "exalteth himself" above God more than Satan?
This would be the regenerate Christian who has let satan in and now exalteth himself above God in God's Holy temple (our bodies). Remember this incident; Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. KJV Mar 8:33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men KJV If satan could enter Peters thoughts I am sure he can enter ours also, we must put on the full armour of God and stand in truth, lest we become the man of sin, the son of perdition. |
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Rom 1:16 " For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth...." Please visit Fish House Ministries | |
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| MoreofHim | Jul 6 2008, 10:51 AM Post #5 |
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I say Amen Midwest. The man of sin is "SELF" "I" "Me" "Myself." 2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. "shewing himself that he is God." Strong's: http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm shewing New Testament Greek Definition: 584 apodeiknumi {ap-od-ike'-noo-mee} from 575 and 1166;; v AV - approve 1, prove 1, set forth 1, show 1; 4 1) to point away from one's self, to point out, show forth, to expose to view, exhibit 2) to declare, to show, to prove what kind of person anyone is, to prove by arguments, demonstrate This is the ugly monster, "I;" it is the humanistic teaching of today that proclaims we have the right to choose and do what we decide is right, and we can be exalted. The apostle Paul said this son of perdition, i.e., "the mystery of iniquity doth already work," verse 7, in the church in his day. It is not something that will happen at a certain time in the future when a certain person in a certain time will sit in a certain chair. It is the ugly monster of SELF that wants to exalt himself above God to decide for himself what is right and what is wrong. This falling away begins when our love of the truth begins to wax cold by compromising God’s Word. Through compromise, our world has been led into captivity to serve the king of confusion, i.e., that "...MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH," REV 17:5. MYSTERY BABYLON rules the world today. THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS is the abomination of the earth. As a result of compromising the Word of God, "the mystery of iniquity" now works confusion in the world. Let’s ponder what Jesus taught us. Jesus spoke of the anxiety that shall dominate the world in this time of confusion in LUK 21:25-26. "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; [Do you know what the word ‘perplexity,’ means? It is taken from the Greek word, ‘Aporia,’ which means ‘to have no way out, to be at a loss mentally, perplexed.’ It is to come to a point of despair.] the sea and the waves roaring; Men’s hearts failing them for fear [Anxiety is fear for the future.], and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken." Those who profess to be Christians see what is coming upon the face of the earth and are perplexed. Those who are truly Christian are not living in perplexity and anxiety. The professed Christians are the MYSTERY BABYLON. They are the ones who will not allow the truth to prevail. They teach peace, peace, peace through the blood of the cross while they still love the wages of sin. Without any repentance, their hearts will fail them for fear of the things taking place on the earth. The Lord Jesus tells us this will come in the last days. Anxiety, perplexity, and confusion will reach a climax. What we see in the world today is a result of unbelief and compromising the Word of God. It is the result of spiritual adultery, serving the god of perdition, i.e., SELF. True peace, true freedom from anxiety, can only be found in freedom from SELF. As long as people serve the ugly monster of SELF, they will be serving the king of confusion. Christs' message was one of denying onesSELF. There is only one place a person can come to true freedom from anxiety. True peace can only be found when we are delivered from "self," by following in the footsteps of Jesus Christ who came to show us the way. We read of the one place we can find peace in ISA 26:3-4, "Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee. Trust ye in the LORD forever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength." What does it mean to be kept in perfect peace? It does not mean the circumstances change. We will continue to live in the same confusing world, but it is to have perfect peace within this state of confusion. We are able to accept it all as from the hand of the Lord, knowing that we can trust in Him. He will supply our every need, and the gates of hell cannot prevail against us. That produces perfect peace because our minds are stayed upon Him, and we trust in Him. Amen. |
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| Wil | Jul 7 2008, 07:45 AM Post #6 |
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The spirit of anti-christ is already here, but there are too many scriptures to me stating that he is also a person. One can disagree if one wants though. |
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| kgreen20 | Jul 7 2008, 09:39 AM Post #7 |
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The Antichrist is definitely both. The spirit of Antichrist is already in the world; the person who will be known as the Antichrist will assume his prophesied role during the Tribulation. |
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| w8n4him | Jul 7 2008, 01:02 PM Post #8 |
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There will be a temple built, and if Christians are "clamoring" for it it is because of their excitement of the soon return of our Lord. The Jewish people do not believe that our bodies are the Temple.......They still think they need a physical one. They are still looking for their messiah. That's who the False Messiah will be appealing to.. He won't be trying to fool us ~ He'll be killing us. |
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| kgreen20 | Jul 7 2008, 01:35 PM Post #9 |
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He won't be killing us, thank the Lord, because we, the Body and Bride of Christ, will be in Heaven with Him. But those who come to faith in Christ after the Rapture will face martyrdom. The vast majority of the Tribulation believers will die. Only a small minority will survive to enter the Millennial Kingdom as mortal believers. (Which not even they would get to do, BTW, if Christ waited till just before His return to earth to Rapture the few surviving believers who would be left.) Edited by kgreen20, Jul 7 2008, 01:35 PM.
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| w8n4him | Jul 7 2008, 01:49 PM Post #10 |
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Well, as you know, I don't agree with that theory ~ There is only one coming of the Lord, and it will be at the first resurrection, and He will come as lightening comes east from the west. This will be prior to the wrath of God, which is different from the wrath of satan. |
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| w8n4him | Jul 7 2008, 02:07 PM Post #11 |
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The reason there IS a Millennium is to bring Israel back into obedience to God and let them pass into the Kingdom of Heaven with God at the second Resurrection after all is said and done. The ones who survive the GT will be the Jews who flee to the mounains away from teh False Messiah. Those people are protected by God. |
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| Chosen1 | Jul 12 2008, 02:44 PM Post #12 |
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A great big amen to that! Midwest, meaning no disrespect, but you ought to spend a little time in the so-called Old Testament. Trying to make your argument with only one reference to the Old Testament, and that verse hardly shedding any light on this topic, borders on absurd. The more that I peruse the various Christian message boards dealing with Bible Prophecy, the more that I am reminded that we are living in the age of Laodicea. I am constantly amazed at the number of people who seem to have no clue as to God's plan for His People Israel, and I don't mean "spiritul Israel". To try and argue otherwise is very nearly calling God a liar to His face. Do a word study in the Old Testament sometime and see how many times God says "I will" regarding promised blessings to a regathered national Israel that still await their fullfillment. He or she who says "no he won't" have no idea how offensive that is to Yahweh, the God of Israel. I would not be in your shoes for anything in the world, and I beg you to reconsider your position before it is too late. |
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| METHUSELAH | Jul 12 2008, 07:44 PM Post #13 |
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I agree with Kathy that the antichrist is a dual fulfillment of prophecy that focuses on both the spiritual environment that engulfs the planet as the stench of sin worsens and upon a false Messiah (global leader) who will deceive the Jews and the gentile world during the Time of Jacob's Trouble. TL |
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| Midwest | Jul 29 2008, 05:20 PM Post #14 |
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Just out of curiousity which of these 4 verses are you referring to? 1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son 1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. I don't see anything in the only 4 verses that use the word antichrist or antichrists that indicate there will be any kind of special endtime antichrist, do you? Some people say that when John said "ye have heard that antichrist shall come" he is referring to a endtime individual, but John told us exactly who that antichrist was when he said "and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come" |
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Rom 1:16 " For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth...." Please visit Fish House Ministries | |
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| Midwest | Jul 29 2008, 05:39 PM Post #15 |
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Act 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Even if the Jews build a building and call it the temple of God it still will not be the temple of God are the two verses I quoted must be mistaken. Paul knew exactly where the temple of God was when he wrote 2Th2:2-4 after all he told us exactly where it was numerous times. 1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 1Co 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. 1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? Can you show where Scripture changes the definition or location of the temple of God? Can you show where the verses from Acts that tell us God does not dwell in temples made with hands has been changed or an exception made for a temple that the Jews may build? If not then why should I believe the temple is anything other then exactly where Paul said it was? |
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Rom 1:16 " For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth...." Please visit Fish House Ministries | |
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| Midwest | Jul 29 2008, 05:48 PM Post #16 |
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I can assure you that I have spent much time studying both the Old and the New Testament. If I am so for off base, why not show where it is in error. Please show Scripture that proves what I said wrong. Show me what I said that "is very nearly calling God a liar to His face." Did I say God would not restore Israel? If I did please show us where? |
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Rom 1:16 " For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth...." Please visit Fish House Ministries | |
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| MoreofHim | Jul 30 2008, 11:36 AM Post #17 |
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Amen Midwest. Thank you for providing your argument based on the Word of God. |
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| gborn@earthlink.net | Aug 4 2008, 09:35 PM Post #18 |
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The word antichrist is mentioned 4 times in the Bible only and never does it say there will only be one person. Actually, this verse in 2 Thess refers to the unbelieving christians, like judas, who fall away by taking the Mark of the Beast when the abomination that makes desolate is set up. God removes His Holy Spirit from them and it reveals the lawless one in that person. Why does it refer to one man? Because there are only two men overall in the earth: o or ye all are one man in Christ Jesus (Gal 3:28) o Number of a man, a corporate man – 1 John 5:19 – whole world lies in evil one. o Sons of Men (those not guided by the Holy Spirit) and Beasts have one breath (spirit), Eccl 3:18-19. What is the Abomination that Makes Desolate? Rom 12:1, 1 Pet 2:9 – we are the priests who have a continual sacrifice – our own lives. Acts 7:48, 17:24 – God no longer dwells in temples made with hands Acts 15:16,1 Cor 3:16, 6:18, Col 1:18, 2 Tim 4:8, 1 Jn 1:6, 4:2, Eph 4:15, Isa 66:1, 2 Cor 4:11, Zech 14:4, Ps 47:3, Mal 4:3 – we are the temple of the God in the New Testament Dan 9:27 – the only sacrifice that will cease is the lives of those reprobated for taking the mark. Dan 8, Mt 24 – Abomination that maketh Desolate 2 Tim 2:3-4 Judas – Son of Perdition, restrainer (Holy Spirit) removed, then demons enter corporate body of people labeled Perdition, who will persecute the saints. First time, it was a pig on the altar by Antiochus Epiphanes, Spiritually, now, it is the sacrifice of a spiritual pig, whose appetite is its belly, who prove that the appetite is their god by taking the mark to buy/sell. What does the 666 mean in scripture? o Can not buy or sell (Rev 13:18) – Again, God’s economy is to give/receive, not buy/sell. o Taking this is the abomination that makes desolate (Dan 9:27, Rom 12:2, 2 Thess 2:3-4) o Much more generic than a specific person o Number of beast, Number of “a” man, number of his name (Rev 13:17-18) o Name = Onoma: nature, character, authority. o Only two men in the world corporately: o or ye all are one man in Christ Jesus (Gal 3:28) o Number of a man, a corporate man – 1 John 5:19 – whole world lies in evil one. o Sons of Men and Beasts have one breath (spirit), Eccl 3:18-19. Hidden References: o Goliath, 6 cubits tall, 6 armaments, spear head 600 shekels Iron. (1 Sam 17) parable of fight between old natural man and new spiritual man (1 Cor 15:46) o Dan 3 – statue, 60 cubits high, 6 cubits wide, plain of Dura (“circle” as in earth, gematria 600) o Solomon got 666 talents of gold per year from renting out vineyards. (1 Kgs 10:14, 2 Chr 9:13) o Romans 6:6 – old man is dead and buried with Christ (6th book, 6th chapter, 6th verse) o John 6:66 – many of his disciples went away and followed him no more. o Carbon-based flesh – 6 Protons, 6 neutrons, 6 electrons makes up physical, natural man. o Old man, natural mind of flesh which is the enemy of God (Rom 8:5-7). o Gematria gives numerics for World (600), Earth (60), Man (6). Whoever is of man, of the world and of the earth is the beast. That's the number of his name 666. Those who are looking for this antichrist to be a certain 1-man will be somewhat confused if his identification by name is not clear. The “he’ in Daniel 9:27 is the same “he” who destroyed the temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD. That he, though he may occupy a human body, is a demon spirit, a principality (as in “prince” in Dan 9:26, Eph 6:12). |
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