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| When will the rapture occur?; When the rapture will occur | |
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| Topic Started: Aug 8 2008, 06:40 PM (643 Views) | |
| METHUSELAH | Aug 9 2008, 04:13 PM Post #21 |
METHUSELAH
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Edited by METHUSELAH, Aug 9 2008, 04:14 PM.
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| Forgive someone today! You'll both feel better... | |
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| Robert | Aug 9 2008, 06:44 PM Post #22 |
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Shershalom says: Now is there any other verse that "says" believers are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit in the tribulation? You were the one who chalenged me and said they were. So where is your proof? I showed different evidences that He was not but you chose to ignore what I said. Why don't you go back and read what I said? It seems to me that believers slain for the word of God and for their testimony (Rev. 6:9-11) called out to the LORD. How can they call Him LORD without the Holy Spirit? We are not going by what it seems like to you. If you say I am wrong then show me where. The subject was the tribulation on earth, not something in heaven. Robert |
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| Robert | Aug 9 2008, 06:48 PM Post #23 |
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Hey Kgreen20! I like your hat, and your post even more. You could not be more correct in your remarks. Keep up the good fight. Robert |
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| Robert | Aug 9 2008, 06:55 PM Post #24 |
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Dinosaur says of Kgreen20's remarks: What do you do with the remnant pieces which cannot fit into your assembled jigsaw puzzle Why don't you answer the lady instead of making snide remarks? Robert |
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| dinosaur | Aug 9 2008, 07:06 PM Post #25 |
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kgreen20 has not yet asked any questions in this thread; she is dispensing doses of dispensationalism. Which definition of *snide* is applicable to my posts? |
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| autoimmune | Aug 9 2008, 07:06 PM Post #26 |
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Hello, Dave. I'm new here, but have been reading anonymously since the thread began on GLP and I came here to read Final Call's posts in context, along with the responses that were offered. I've said nothing so far because I believe that all members of the Body will "see" as they are called to see, and therefore, there is no purpose to scriptural debates, which usually add little to Love within the Body, but frequently decrease our love for each other instead. Yours was the first post that mentioned something in line with the way I interpret the Book of Revelation and the associated scriptures, so I feel comfortable sharing my own understanding of the scriptural passages involved. Just so you know, yes, there are others like you who see "two catchings away" and, because of that, interpret things a bit differently than most. However, I would add that I don’t agree that the catching away is "from earth" (in the first instance at least). When the first part of the Body (the Groom or "manifested sons of God") is "caught up" with Christ we will remain wherever we are on earth. We are not taken away, but remain here because of Love for the rest of the Body ("the Bride"). Those caught up when Christ returns "as a thief in the night" spend the seven days (7 years of tribulation, perhaps) with the Bride and are part of helping her to "be made ready," dressed in righteousness--pure, spotless and without wrinkle. We are not caught up in Christ to be taken out of the Tribulation, but in order to be here with the Bride as she is cleansed and made ready by that testing. It isn't a matter of who is a "good" Christian or a "bad" one; but of a "separating out" of the Groom from the Bride first, and the two becoming "one flesh and one bone" in preparation for Christ being revealed to the unbelieving world in glory at His Second Coming. So, to me, the "unveiling" (Revelation) has two parts--first within and to the church, and then to the world. Understood properly, there is no conflict between “pre and post” trib scriptures.
God has taught me to look for the assumptions I make when interpreting scripture and, once found, to re-ask the question I was originally seeking an answer to. Usually, the assumption is based on long held doctrines men have held on that particular scriptural verse. Once I recognize the assumption it usually becomes evident WHY I never got a satisfactory answer that integrated perfectly with other scriptures. In this case, you are assuming that the goal of reading Revelation (and Daniel, Eze, Matt 24-25, Luke, Thessalonians etc) is to determine "the sequence of events" that will take place in order to be prepared for His Parousia, or coming as King of Kings. Remove that assumption and re-ask the questions based on what you have already been given to see as possible, Dave (that there are two sets of scriptures relating to the translation/rapture). The question then becomes “Why would you return twice, Lord, once as “a thief in the night” and then later in glory for all the world to see? If we let go of our need to know what happens and when, we might begin to see the glorious picture Christ and His apostles left for us of the coming of the Kingdom of God on earth. Jesus’ favorite picture of the Kingdom in His parables was of a great feast—a wedding feast. Is this same picture there in John’s vision? Yes, very much so. Revelation abounds in marriage imagery. If we understand that, we can “interpret” Revelation through the perspective of this image. Then, instead of looking for particular events to line up according to a certain order, we are focused instead on the wedding and its feast, and how He has arranged for it to happen to the benefit of all. Instead of dividing Christians into “true Christians” versus those who got it wrong, we would see instead ONE Body made up of members at various stages of understanding about their true identity in Christ; ONE Body made up of Groom and Bride, each with a different role to play, but both essential for Christ Body to be as He intended it to be. I don’t believe the sons of God are made manifest to create a worldly kingdom for Christ before His return. They are those who, like Paul, have come to understand it is no longer they alive, but Christ alive in them. They are the 144.000 who have an open door before them that never shuts and enables them to be always with the Lamb. They are pure virgins in that they have never been stained with the adultery of following another God; meaning they have understood and remained faithful to scripture as it was given them to understand it, and that they came to this understanding of scripture because they first did as they were commanded—to love one another in the Body as Jesus has loved us. They never “fell away” because they were always mindful of their first Love. If Final Call has received a true message from God, then I believe this is what he was shown. The separating out is not to do with sheep from goats (good and bad Christians), but of those in the Body called to be part of the Groom from those who are to be His Bride. This must be done so that the Bride can be made ready. It is not a reward or punishment, simply a setting of roles depending on the individual Christians personal response to the call he or she received. I can easily accept that a day will come when the Father says, “This is the day the Groom is made manifest, teh day that He goes forth to retrieve His Bride.” And, yes, at that point, I believe the roles will be set. I am not sure it will be the 15th, but, like others here, I pray that each day may be the day. Jesus told us that only the Father knows the day because, according to ancient Jewish marriage tradition, the Father decides when the Groom sets out to bring His Bride to her new home, not the Groom. I believe Jesus is as anxious as we are! This is getting long, so I won’t add much else, but would be happy to share all the various ways the many scriptures people debate can be shown to fit into a seamless and marvelous picture of the coming Wedding Feast, all that leads up to it, and what happens afterward. Blessing on all, Mary Ellen Edited by autoimmune, Aug 9 2008, 07:10 PM.
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| Robert | Aug 9 2008, 07:11 PM Post #27 |
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dinosaur says: I say it but because it is in the Bible. "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." --- John 14:16-18 (KJV) The Lord Jesus Christ gave this promise to all believers, in the past, present and future. What began at Pentecost is still in effect today and will continue according to His Word. There you go again. saying things you cannot prove. I would go over it again and show you how the evidence is that He is not the tribulation but I told you once and demonstrated what I said and you completely ignored me. So why should I think you would believe me the second round? As to Him abiding with the apostles forever, the apostles are not in the tribulation, nor are they being discussed. You are taking things out of context and applying them to Gentiles. I can show where Judas went out an hung himself, but that doesn't apply to us. Robert |
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| Robert | Aug 9 2008, 07:34 PM Post #28 |
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Hey Dinosaur Why don't we call it quits? This is going nowhere, and the reader probably just as weary with it as I am. The best to you in your studies. Robert |
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| Shershalom | Aug 9 2008, 09:11 PM Post #29 |
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Hi AutoImmune (MaryEllen) ~ Welcome to ATN!  Your Wrote: "... but would be happy to share all the various ways the many scriptures people debate can be shown to fit into a seamless and marvelous picture of the coming Wedding Feast, all that leads up to it, and what happens afterward." Keep talking, and do share the scriptures. I am interested in seeing your conclusions. Feel free to share other on-line studies that can perused as well. Thanks, Sherry |
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SherShalom "Blessed is HE that comes in the NAME of the LORD." MATTHEW 23:39 | |
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| autoimmune | Aug 9 2008, 10:20 PM Post #30 |
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Hello, Sherry. Thank you so much for the warm welcome. I rarely start a thread anywhere, though I used to quite frequently add my point of view to scriptural debates and religious discussions others had begun in a wide variety of internet sites. Lately I've been posting much less than usual in all the forums I visit. If I don't feel a strong urging to add something I usually stay silent. Even then, I do a lot of prayer before uploading a post because I am very, very tired of Christians arguing with each other and do not wish to be part of it any more. God's been making me very conscious of the fact that I am held accountable for every word I speak. Most of my life I've been quite a chatterbox and have probably wasted more words than most, so it's very difficult in some ways for me over the last few months, though also a great relief to let go of things that once burdened me. I'm not sure I could show you my conclusions. It isn't a matter of having reached conclusions about what a number of scriptural passages mean. More like a growing understanding of how the puzzle pieces fit together because of a tantalizing glimpse of the finished picture I had decades ago. I have difficulty writing about it because no one thing can be examined in isolation. Each scriptural verse relates to, explains, supports, or is supported by others, and all leading inexorably to the only one conclusion I can make with certainty: man cannot conceive of what God has planned for those of us who love Him. If you were to ask me a specific question about what I believe based on what I said in my first post, it would be easier for me to respond because it would give me a starting place at least. if not, that's okay too. I'm sure you'll be content to come to know me as the conversations go on. Mary Ellen Edited to correct quote formatting again. Edited by autoimmune, Aug 9 2008, 10:22 PM.
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| Shershalom | Aug 10 2008, 08:54 AM Post #31 |
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Hi again MaryEllen, I know how you feel about how things go in forums! I've a hugh dent in my forehead.  I definitely have a headache ... Pretty soon my brains are gonna fall out. LOL.  Obviously, I have an understanding of the end times thus far. I am not so dogmatic within certain areas as to not learn something new. Like yourself, if things get argumentative, I shut down and promptly bow out. Prefer the path of peace. I'm not 'Shershalom' without reason.  With all due respect to all the varied opinions, doctrines, and whatever tidbits get thrown around these days, I find that I need the biblical foundation in which to get the answers. Scriptures. I need scriptures! Ok, deep breath ... here goes ...The "catching away" is not from earth? Caught up, but here? Are you saying that believers are the "Groom" as well as the "Bride"? Is not Yeshua the Bridegroom? "Manifested sons of God"?? And yes, getting the pre and post trib positions corelated will be interesting. Shall I continue? Or is this plus the quoted enough for you to share on? Thanks again,  Sherry |
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SherShalom "Blessed is HE that comes in the NAME of the LORD." MATTHEW 23:39 | |
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| dinosaur | Aug 10 2008, 09:47 AM Post #32 |
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Every single day previous words I've misspoken throughout the years have been brought clearly to my mind, filling me with remorse. Being conscious of my dialogue with family and citizens has caused me to speak fewer words in their presence, especially strangers. In public places I listen to others conversing freely, cursing, gossiping, arguing and blabbing nonsense. I am ashamed that many Americans speak ungodly foolishness. |
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| autoimmune | Aug 11 2008, 01:03 AM Post #33 |
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My dent's pretty much healed now. One of the first assumptions God had me question if the purpose of preaching the gospel is really to "save sinners from hell." What I found, once I dropped the original assumption, was this isn't actually what Paul taught. According to Paul, the church (ekklesia, or "called out ones") is Christ's Body (Eph 1: 22-23), and the Body is given gifts for one purpose: "to form the perfect Man, fully mature with the fullnes of Christ Himself." (Eph 4: 13). Paul promises that "if we live by the truth (scriptures) and in love (the command He gave His disciples), we shall grow completely into Christ," (Eph 4: 15) So, when I re-asked the question about why we were given the great commission to preach the gospel, I find my answer in Paul's words: we are sent to find those with ears to hear and eyes to see who are called, chosen and faithful to building that Body. And, as far as I can see, this fits with the rest of God's plan for mankind. Step by step He is accomplishing all He promised to accomplish with His death on the cross.
LOL! We should get along well then. Sometimes I take a while to reply to something, either because God just tells me to stay off the forums for a bit, or I get tired some days and, even though I might enjoy a good conversation, I don't have the energy to chat or formulate an intelligent reply to a question someone might ask about what I believe and why.
I'm not adverse to giving the references and I put a few in so far of ones I knew off the top of my head, but I don't always do that unless specifically asked. For one thing, I don't always have the energy to take the time to look up the exact scriptural reference. But mostly it is because God impressed on me a long time ago that He, as The Word, should be alive in me, part of my very being. Not just scriptures pulled from a book to make a point in a scriptural debate or discussion. His parables, responses to others, commands, His life and death and resurrection--all of it should be part of my understanding and present in everything I say to others. So I never cut and paste scripture and rarely give the common references most should already know anyway. IF I am making a point using an obscure passage many would not be familiar with, then yes, I add the reference. I'll give you an example. Here is a paragraph taken from the quoted section of my first post. This time I added the references:
Everything I said was based on something I've studied, read, and tested against scripture over a lifetime relationship with God. The references make it hard to read as easily as it did the first time I wrote it. Besides, it shouldn't be necessary for Christians grounded in the word to constantly be "proving" that what they say is scriptural to each other. If one has a question, then ask for the reference, but to give scriptures for each thought, when all we do is think of God and His word, well . . . we'd be citing references every other word :) In cases like the questions you ask below, yes, it would be natural THEN to cite the scripture because you are asking specifically for the places from which these beliefs stem.
People insist that Paul's words of being "caught up in the clouds" means we are physically removed from earth. Yet, Paul uses that same term "caught up in the clouds"/harpazo elsewhere withour that meaning at all. So why do we insist on our own meaning for this when he makes clear what he means elsewhere when he uses the term harpazo, or "caught up"? In 2Cor 12: 2, and then again in verse 4, Paul shows us that he means one is caught up in the heavens or the clouds when one becomes present to Christ. The Greek word means "to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly." Caught up simply means God seizes our senses, mind, and consciousness for Himself. Like a shift in perspective, or having a veil drawn so we can see what was not visible to us before. The word harpazo comes from the Greek root word haireō, which means "to take for oneself, to prefer, choose" (as in a vote or election). Paul is saying that he experienced a moment where God chose him, claimed himself so strongly that the veil lifted and he, Paul, was literally present to God. Paul refuses to say whether it happens physically (in body) or spiritually because he doesn't wish to speak incorrectly. To say it was physical would mean he is assuming he has achieved his resurrected body--and he rightly senses this is not so. "For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me [to be], or he heareth of me." 2Cor 12:6 Another verse frequently used to "prove" we are taken physically from the earth is Matt 24: 40-41 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left." The Greek word we interpret as "taken," paralambano, means " to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self." Aphiemi, which we translate as "left," also connotes a relationship, as in "to leave one by not taking him as a companion." While I would agree that this does refer to what many call the rapture, I don't see it as physical removal from the earth, but a statement about the depth of intimacy that takes place when we are joined to Christ physically at that time. In a twinkling of an eye some will be "translated" into the resurrected Body of Christ. One will be joined, imperishable, to Christ. His physical body will cease to be what, where, how it was a second before. The other will not be chosen as a physical companion within that Body and will remain within his or her perishable mortal body.
Yes, that is what I am saying. The church, the Body of Christ, is made up of those who are either part of the Groom or part of the Bride. They will be "bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh" as was originally intended in the beginning for marriage (Gen 2: 23). Man will have eternal life through Spirit, and no longer corruptible, mortal life that comes from blood (Lev 17: 11) I could do a very long explanation on the two ways our physical bodies are animated/given life (blood or Spirit) and why this is essential to understanding the rapture or translation and the entire marriage image Jesus uses to explain His Kingdom, but it's getting late and I'm tired. If it is an area you are interested in, I'll be happy to explain more another day. As for the second question, yes, Jesus is the Bridegroom, but Paul tells us part of the mystery--"it is no longer I, but Christ alive in me." This relates also to one of the passages I mentioned in the beginning, where he says that "if we live by the truth (scriptures) and in love (the command He gave His disciples), we shall grow completely into Christ, who is the head, by whom the whole body is fitted and jointed together . . . " (Eph 4: 15) Two things are required to grow completely into Christ: truth and love. We might focus completely on scripture and get every interpretation correct, but if we don't have love for our brothers, the one thing that shows we are His, then, though we are still members of the Body through faith, Christ cannot mature in us. Or, we might have a lot of love for others, but never bother to check scripture to learn about WHO we love and WHY. All the love in the world will not perfect us in Christ if we do not understand the scriptures about Him. BOTH Truth AND Love are required. So, yes, I am saying what Paul did, that as we present ourselves a living sacrifice to the Lord in order to be transformed through the renewal of our minds (Rom 12: 1-2). A sacrifice is totally burned and immolated--and this is necessary if someday we are going to be able to say as Paul did that our mind has been so totally renewed by the Holy Spirit that it is no longer I, but Christ alive in me. Many mistake this for thinking that somehow we become Christ or a minigod of sorts. We do not. We find our identity IN Him; we subsist within Him as the source of our life and identity by His grace. We remain the creature/created beings, but are graced with a unique union with the Creator through His Love. So, yes, I DO believe that when Paul speaks about the translation, he is speaking of those who have lived in truth and in love by God's grace and for His purpose to the point that they have "grown completely into Christ," who is the Groom as you mentioned.
People tend to get knee jerk reactions to that phrase because of the strange theology some have created out of it. No, I do not believe there will be superhumans creating a worldwide physical government to present to Christ at His return. Most of what they have done with Romans 8: 19 is eisogesis, not exegesis. We cannot create a theology and then pull versus from scripture to show it is correct. Exegesis means taking all the scriptures relating to a topic and showing how they fit together TO form a theology, not the other way around. Because some men used the scripture concerning the manifestation of the sons of God to develop an ego-driven vision of the future, does not mean that there is no truth to what Paul said: creation DOES groan for the revelation/manifestation/unveiling of the sons of GOd. And Jesus very clearly told us that, through the Spirit, we might become the children of God, co-heirs with Him to the Kingdom. What they fail to understand is that the manifestation is Christ's--not us personally; Paul was speaking about the manifestation, or unveiling of Christ within His Body that the world groans for. Christ does the action, not us. Not a few superhuman men who are going to change the world before Christ returns.
Actually, it's fairly simple. Pre-trib rapture refers to those in the Body called, chosen and faithful to truth and love who grow completely into Christ at the translation Paul spoke about. In a twinkling of an eye they will be transformed from corruptible into incorruptible, mortal to immortal and death will lose its sting for them. I believe these are members of the church of Philadelphia who will be spared the test (Rev 3: 10) because they "have persevered." They have "little strength" (meaning they rely on the Spirit, rather than their own strength), have kept His commandments (to love God above all things and love each other as themselves) and not disavowed His name (know scriptural truth and remained faithful to it). I believe these are the ones who will be translated because Jesus tells them that they will be made into "a pillar of the sanctuary of my God and they will stay there forever." Jesus told us that He is the temple that will be torn down and rebuilt in three days. Yes, He rose in three literal days, but using the prophetic equivalent of one day is a thousand years to God and the fact that He tells us through Paul that we are His Body, this temple (His Body) will also be rebuilt on the morning of the third day (after two thousand years). The Bride are those who have accepted Christ (and others during the tribulation who will do so as well) and have a good foundation (Jesus Christ), but built poorly, either being weak in truth (scripturally in error) or love (mistaking human love for God's Love). They will be tested as many passages indicate. They will be severely afflicted by Satan -- not God, though it is He who allows the testing; so this is tribulation, not the wrath of God which comes after the marriage feast in Rev 19. Satan "makes war with the rest of her children who obey God's commandments and have in themselves the witness of Jesus." (Rev 12: 17). This occurs AFTER the man-child is "born." The phrase "the rest of her children" or "the remnant of her seed" comes from the greek word loipos which means "the rest of what remains." Remains after what? After the "man-child"/Christ is "born." And this corresponds to all the words concerning the end being like a woman in travail, and to Paul's word about all creation groaning for the manifestation of the sons of God. These are Christians who remain from many organized religions, the Bride who has yet to "be made ready" (Rev 19: 8). They are members from each of the seven other churches of Rev 2-3, who had a weakness they did not overcome. Each will be given the chance through the testing to be made ready to put on the white linen dress of the righteous. And the marriage does not take place until after the destruction of the Whore of Babylon, who represents organized religion upon earth. This is getting long so I won't go into how the whore is actually the woman of revelation 12 and also the Bride, and how it all reelates to Ezechiel 16, but it does all fit together in a way I never would have thought possible years ago. Each step has to be accomplished by God in turn, Christ, then the firstfruits, then His Bride. When the Bride is made ready, the marriage feast takes place. The entire Body of Christ is now one flesh and one bone, and then Christ returns on the clouds, visible to the entire world.
LOL! A bit too much, to be honest. Took me quite a while to put this together for you. I got sidetracked into so many other related verses that I had to try to remain focus simply on what you asked about.
You're welcome, Sherry. May God bless you and keep you always in His hand as well. Mary Ellen [/quote] |
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| autoimmune | Aug 11 2008, 01:09 AM Post #34 |
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Hi, dinosaur. I think many of us are being made aware of the many thoughtless words we sometimes speak. One of the things that resulted from this for me is that I have been becoming a much better listener. I also don't get as tired as I used to because I am doing less of the long posts I ma used to. I still take time to write my thoughts out, but I only do a few here and there now when people seriously ask for an explanation of something I said. Much easier than always trying to get a word in on every topic like I used to :) I wanted to thank you, btw. I followed your lead here from GLP, so I appreciate your taking the time to post FC's info there. Mary Ellen |
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| Shershalom | Aug 11 2008, 11:49 AM Post #35 |
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Thanks, Mary Ellen, for the time and effort you put in to anwering some of my questions (post #33). I certainly understand shortening up on some parts ... the clock on the post said you posted at 1:00 in the morning!! I do find it interesting to see where and why people take different directions in their end time studies. So thank you again for your thoughts on the "rapture". Sherry |
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SherShalom "Blessed is HE that comes in the NAME of the LORD." MATTHEW 23:39 | |
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| DaveLovesJesus | Aug 11 2008, 12:00 PM Post #36 |
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Mary Ellen, Welcome and I welcome the reply and information. I am not one to debate. I'd rather learn. Thank you for your reply. God bless, DaveLovesJesus |
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| Robert | Aug 11 2008, 12:24 PM Post #37 |
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DLJ says in his post #99 on Aug. 8: …no where does it say the Holy Spirit leaves the believer. I wish you would go back and read my original post. Most of the things you mention, I have already answered. You are correct that the Spirit does not leave the believer. But you haven’t shown where He was indwelling them in the trib. In Rev. 2:7 At the counsel in Jerusalem (Acts 15) James says that at this present time God is taking out of the Gentiles a people for His name. And then adds, “After this,” God will begin the rebuilding of David’s kingdom which has fallen down. Paul says the same thing in Rom. 11:25-26 that blindness in part has happened to Israel “until” the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Meaning this present age that ends with the rapture, and “then” all Israel will be saved. Of course the “all” is the 1/3 of Zech. 13:8-9 that will survive the tribulation. When Paul says then “all Israel” will be saved, he is continuing his remarks from Rom. 11:5 where he speaks of even at that time a remnant is being saved, but then all Israel will be saved. Here it is plain that God intends to bring the church and present Dispensation of Grace to a conclusion before the beginning of the re-establishment of the kingdom of Israel as shown in Revelation. According to James and Paul that time of rebuilding the kingdom of David is identical to Daniel’s 70th week and the 7 years tribulation period will begin immediately after the rapture. James tells the apostles: Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. “And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written: ‘After this I will return and rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen down. I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up, so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord. Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the ‘Lord who does all these things’ (Acts 15:14-18). Paul said: …now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. “But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you” (Rom. 8:9, 11). You say: If the book of Revelation contains everything from the Rapture to Revelation, the following sequence of events seem to take place. * Letter to the churches Revelation 2 and 3 I have showed in several other posts that the so-called “churches” of Rev. 2-3 are Jewish ‘assemblies’ (ekklesia) in the tribulation. For two thousand years we have been misled by the translators into believing that the churches in Matt. 16, 18, and Rev. are the present assembly of Christ. The word ekklesia translated “church,” simply means assembly, not church. The same ekklesia is found in Acts 19:32, 39 to identify a bunch of idol worshipers, but they would not dare to call them a church. It can easily be seen in the letters to the seven Jewish assemblies in Rev. 2 and 3 that they will be judged according to their works (he that overcomes) because they have not the indwelling Holy Spirit as believers do today. Their judgments await the coming of the Lord when He will establish the kingdom just like in Matt. 13 and 25 where their judgments are according to their works because the Holy Spirit was not indwelling them. We who already have the Holy Spirit have already been separated from the unjust; we have died with Christ. Likewise, if those in the judgments at His coming are judged it is because they have not received the Holy Spirit. As Peter says of the people in the kingdom after the Lord comes; God will then pour out His Spirit on all flesh. Also, as I have pointed out, on those that He will pour out His Spirit are those who survive the tribulation. If they were given the Spirit in the tribulation, then why would He be given again after they enter the kingdom? Whereas, we in the present church have already overcome in Christ and sealed by Him until the day of our redemption (Eph. 1:13-14). Without doubt, there will be much disagreement as to the identity of the “churches” in Revelation above. However, the question can be easily settled with a simple question. Does Christ, the living God, need to eat of the tree of life that He created to live? Why then should we? Paul told the Philippians church that not only is our citizenship is in heaven, but that Christ “will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body” (Phil. 3:21). The tree of life is for those flesh and blood mortals to become immortal and live in the kingdom on earth (Rev. 2:7). They will reproduce whereas we in heaven will have flesh and bone, but not blood. It is yet another example of how the translators have for two millennia deceived the Lord’s people by translating “ekklesia” to Church in the seven letters of Revelation 2 and 3. As already shown in our studies of Matt. 16:18 Christ said He would build His assembly and immediately identified it when He said He would give Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven (v. 19). To put it another way, why would Christ build His church and then give Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven? They are most certainly not the same. If anyone had keys to the church, it would have been Paul who founded it, and that without any help from Peter and the others. Furthermore, Revelation 2:9 speaks critically of those who claimed to be Jews and were not. There is no advantage of being a Jew in this dispensation? In the tribulation there will be. It is the time of Daniel’s 70th week when God is in process of reclaiming the nation Israel, the rebuilding of the household of David (Acts 15:14-17). And that, after He has finished taking out (catching out in the rapture) of the Gentiles a people for His name” (v. 14). One other point in identifying the churches in Revelation, in Rev. 1:7 it is said that John was in the Spirit “…on the Lord’s Day.” The notion that the Lord’s Day is Sunday on which Christians worship is another of the Church’s fabrications. One might ask, what is the difference between The Lord’s Day, and the Day of the Lord? Does it not say the same thing? If indeed we are speaking of the Day of the Lord in Revelation 1, then it is just more evidence that the present church has already left in the rapture and the seven letters are to Jewish churches in the tribulation rather than the present one. If the above is not accepted, then the question must be asked, what has being in the Spirit on the pagan name Sunday, got to do with what was revealed to John? However, if John was in the Spirit on the Day of the Lord, then it would have everything to do with what he was shown and told to write. If they are Jewish assemblies in the tribulation, then again, according to James we are forced to the truth that at that time, the rapture has already taken place and the kingdom gospel is again being preached according to the Lord’s words in Matt. 24:14. It is the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week. James said that after God has finished taking out of the Gentiles a people, He will then begin the rebuilding of David’s kingdom which is synonymous with the tribulation period. You say: * John sees the great multitude (too numerous to count)... so by seal #6 they are there in heaven. Revelation doesn't say when they actually get there, but after the 144k are sealed, they are seen, which means either beforehand to the moment after the 144k are sealed, they are there. This looks like the Rapture to me. So in my opinion, this is the time period when the Rapture happens and they have "come out" of the great tribulation The ones you mention in Rev. 6:9 are said to be “souls,” nothing is said about a resurrection of the body from earth. When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. The general resurrection comes at the end of the tribulation when the Lord comes with us. Col. 3:3 says: “When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.” Of course if we are with Him when He appears to the earth, then we had to be caught up beforehand. In His grace Robert |
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| autoimmune | Aug 12 2008, 03:25 PM Post #38 |
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You're very welcome, Sherry and Dave. And thank you both in return for asking and then taking the time to read what I wrote. One of the greatest pleasures in life is sharing scriptural understanding within the Body, imo. None of us may have all the pieces, but between us all, I believe God has revealed all each needs to know to build/edify it. And we never know where or by whom a small seed of understanding will be planted. I have been blessed many times to find a small gem (and sometimes big ones!) in things others say, some small little piece of the puzzle that fits beautifully. LOL! yes, 1 am. I'm a night owl sometimes. I had intended to answer earlier, but 5 of the grandkids came over that day and it wasn't until 10 pm that I had a quiet time available to gather my thoughts and right them down. Even then I probably deleted more than I actually ended up posting. Once again, thank you both, and may God continue to bless you and keep you in His Love for the Father and each other in the Body. Mary Ellen |
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