When will the rapture occur?

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When will the rapture occur?; When the rapture will occur
Topic Started: Aug 8 2008, 06:40 PM (629 Views)
Robert	Aug 8 2008, 06:40 PM Post #1
Member Posts: 61 Group: Members Member #4,713 Joined: May 30, 2008	Since the rapture will be one of the greatest events in human history, and many think it is close at hand, the burning issue of the day is, when will the rapture occur? As the Lord told His disciples in Acts 1:7 when they asked when the kingdom would come, He said: “It is not for you to know the times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.” One thing is certain according the Lord’s promise through Paul, the church will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air to realize that blessed hope. But sad to say, many do not have that hope, but instead, look for the tribulation and all kinds of persecutions by the Antichrist for those in tribulation who must endure to the end. Where we have already separated from the lost, the tribulation is a time when all mankind is being sifted to separate the saved from the lost such as in the Wheat and Tares parable and others. A time for each individual to decide whom they will follow, and consequently, where they will spend eternity. Incidentally, when the subject of the rapture and other Christian teaching are discussed in public, there is much heard of ‘born again’ Christians (without explanation) as being different than ordinary Christians. But there is no such thing as a non-born again Christian. Jesus said: “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” (Jo. 3:3). As we come into the world we are just the offspring of Adam. To be a Christian, we as part of lost humanity in Adam must be re-born into the family of God through regeneration by the Holy Spirit. Paul said: …now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. “But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you” (Rom. 8:9, 11). The tribulation is a time when God will proclaim the Lord Jesus as the coming KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS (Rev. 19:16). But time is short; the Holy Spirit has left with the church and no longer restrains the man of sin. The Antichrist is marshalling his power to completely rule the world in open defiance of God, and most of the world’s population will follow him. It is a time when God’s patience is running out, a time when every living soul will have to decide who they will serve; Christ, or Satan’s Antichrist. Paul said to the Thessalonians: But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this day should overtake you as a thief. You are sons of the day. We are not of the night or of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. “…For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him” (1 Thess. 5:4-6, 9-10). But when will He come? It is often heard by the Dispensationalists that the rapture is imminent, and that is true in that there will be no announcements beforehand. The reason they emphasize that is to rightfully distinguish it from the judgments when the Lord comes and establishes the kingdom. But before He comes, all kinds of proclamations of His coming will be made. (1)The 144 thousand (Rev. 7:4-8) are to preach His coming to the world. (2)The two Witnesses in Rev. 11:3 will preach to Israel. (3)The angel of Rev. 14:6 will preach to the whole world. (4)When the sower went out to sow (Matt. 13: 24) the kingdom gospel. (5)When the 10 virgins heard the Bridegroom was coming in Matt. 25:6. (6)All the physical signs on earth and in the heavens of Matt. 24, and Acts 2:17-21. It is true that no official notification of the rapture will be made. However, from the magnitude of things in the tribulation described by the Lord and others, surely there should be a discernable foreshadowing of those things. We should know the rapture is close at hand by the signs of the times all around us. We might reasonably ask, why is there no time set for when the rapture will occur? Because the rapture was a mystery from it’s beginning and has absolutely nothing to do with what follows in the tribulation. Nor does the church have anything to do with the kingdom as to when it is established. That is positively shown in Daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy, and in Matthew 10:5-23 where without any break, all is about Israel and the establishment of the kingdom. This dispensation affects nothing that went before or what follows. If it did, it would not have been a mystery. What we see in Daniel and Matt. 10:5 23 is the same as throughout Scripture. The placing together of Scripture where at times in a mere sentence is a time gap of centuries. Shown here is only a few Scriptures from the many where there is no break shown for the present age: Gen. 49:10; Isa. 9:6 7; 61:2; Dan. 7:8 9, 12 14, 19 22; 9:26 27; Amos 9:9 11; Zech. 9:9 10; 13:7 9; Matt. 3:11; 10:5 23; Lk. 1:31 33; 21:24 25; Acts 2:17 21; Rev. 12:5 6. That the present church is not mentioned is explained by Paul who said his gospel was a mystery in past ages until revealed to him (Rom. 16:25; Eph. 3:1-9; Col. 1:25-27). Consequently, there would be no point in God setting the time of the rapture since it has nothing to do with anything else. The church has been so misled for so long, it is extremely difficult and for some, and impossible for others to reprogram their fallacious mindset that the Lord said He would build the church, and that Peter founded it. As to signs of the coming tribulation, according to Dan. 9:27 it seems offhand that we should see the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem for the re-institution of the sacrifices that will resume close to the time the rapture of the church occurs and the tribulation’s beginning. The covenant that the Antichrist makes with Israel is the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week, or the tribulation. According to Dan. 9:27 that will require the offering of the sacrifices to cease in the middle of the week when Antichrist sits himself in the temple as God and demands his worship (2 Thess. 2:4). After the remark above that we probably should see the rebuilt temple, perhaps we should re-examine the covenant with the Antichrist that he will make Israel. Since the rebuilding of the temple will require somehow the removal of the mosque that now sits on the temple mount, possibly included in the covenant with the Antichrist will be the assurance of protection from the surrounding Muslim nations who presently would declare all out war with Israel if that happened. If that scenario is valid, than that would move the rapture closer to the present because the building of the temple would then be moved into the tribulation period, instead of before it begins. The seating of Antichrist in the temple is in the middle of the week (Dan. 9:27) and is dated from when the covenant is signed. The sacrifices could begin anytime after the temple is rebuilt but have to be in the first 31/2 years because Daniel says the Antichrist declares himself to be God in the middle of the week of years where sacrifice and offering will cease. In Matt. 24:2 the Lord told the disciples about the coming destruction of the temple in AD 70 and they in v. 2 asked the Lord, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of your coming, and the end of the age?” In v. 6 the Lord said there would be people saying they are the Christ, and they would hear of wars and rumors of wars but “…all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. “For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famine, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.” Then He adds, “All these are the beginnings of sorrows.” Those sorrows are the beginnings of the birth pangs of Israel in the tribulation and continue from v. 9 through v. 14 when the end will come. That time is seen in Rev. 6:2-8 and the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse that begins in v. 2 with the Antichrist going forth, “conquering and to conquer.” In Lk. 21:8-9 the Lord says the same as in Matt. 24: 4-6 then adds the same as in Matt. 24:6. “…the end will not come immediately.” Luke then in vv. 10-11 continues a description of the tribulation, but in vv. 12-24 He then explains above about the intermediate age beginning with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple following His death and resurrection that ends with, “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” The end of the times of the Gentiles passes completely over the present age and takes up when the Lord comes at the end of the tribulation where shortly thereafter is proclaimed: “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever” (Rev. 11:15). Paul explained to Timothy how things would be in the last days of the church just before the rapture. But know this, that in the last days perilous time will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away (2 Tim. 3:1-5)! It can be clearly seen that nothing is said that will not apply to everyday life in America today and is getting worse by the hour. Although we have already been delivered from the wrath to come, there are descriptions of things that indicate those times are near. In the last few years, things seen in the tribulation are common in everyday life in America. There are things that bring the wrath of God on unrepentant sinners in the tribulation as well as Christian imitators who were left behind. It is said: “…they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts” (Rev. 9:21). The Greek word “sorceries” (pharmakeia) is where our word drugs, and pharmacy comes from. In the above setting it has a meaning of to have “an enchantment with drugs.” In approximately AD 50-52 is recorded where the apostles held a counsel in Jerusalem to settle some issues raised by Pharisees that were causing confusion in the Jewish church, as well as in Gentile churches later established by Paul. At that counsel James says that at this present time God is taking out of the Gentiles a people for His name. And then adds, “After this,” God will begin the rebuilding of David’s kingdom which has fallen down. Paul says the same thing in Rom. 11:25-26 that blindness in part has happened to Israel “until” the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Meaning this present age that ends with the rapture, and “then” all Israel will be saved. Of course the “all” is the 1/3 of Zech. 13:8-9 that will survive the tribulation. When Paul says then “all Israel” will be saved, he is continuing his remarks from Rom. 11:5 where he speaks of even at that time a remnant is being saved, but then all Israel will be saved. Here it is plain that God intends to bring the church and present Dispensation of Grace to a conclusion before the beginning of the re-establishment of the kingdom of Israel. That time of rebuilding the kingdom of David is identical to Daniel’s 70th week and the 7 years tribulation period will begin immediately after the rapture. James tells the apostles: Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. “And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written: ‘After this I will return and rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen down. I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up, so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord. Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, Says the ‘Lord who does all these things’ (Acts 15:14-18). By that time Peter knew about Paul’s mission in establishing the present church and acknowledged Paul’s mission to the Gentiles in this age. The tribulation is synonymous with the beginning of the birth pangs of Israel and the end of worldwide Gentile dominion. When James says after, he has finished taking out of the Gentiles a people for His name; it is evident that the present Dispensation of Grace has suddenly ended. When the last believer in this age receives the Holy Spirit is when the rapture occurs and the fullness or complete number of Gentiles has come in. The beginning of the tribulation necessitates the removal of the Holy Spirit who hinders the revelation of the lawless one (2 Thess. 2:7) until He is removed, then, the tribulation period begins. But even more important to this study is the removal of the Holy Spirit which is synonymous with the removal of the church. Another thing seen today and fast becoming more obvious is with few exceptions; the supernatural demon instigated hatred of Israel by men and nations including many misguided Christians. The Lord foretold that about the last days when the gospel of the kingdom is again being preached. “…Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake” (Matt. 24:9). You will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. “But when they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes” (Matt. 10:22-23). Since the church is an altogether different program, a mystery from the beginning with a heavenly destination and purpose, it is reasonable to believe that James was speaking of and including her removal in the rapture. He did say God was taking out a people for His name before beginning the rebuilding of David’s kingdom. By then (approx. AD 50-52) Paul had explained his gospel to them, and no doubt had also explained the rapture as well, it being part of and having to do with the present church. There is much debate as to when Paul wrote the Galatians letter. But Paul made mention of the meeting in Jerusalem in Gal. 2:1-9 and recorded in Acts 15 which would make it after that meeting. For two millennia, the Lord has been taking out of the Gentiles a people for His name. When that exact number is complete, those still living in that generation will have to be included in the number that is taken out. And that is precisely what the rapture is all about. Would the Lord desert the last living generation of His bride to endure the perils of the tribulation, and that without the Holy Spirit? The thought is not only incredulous, it is impossible. Paul says that if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His (Rom. 8:9). Yet there are those who believe that and use Lk. 21: 35-36 as supposed proof that only the worthy ones will be caught up. But the Lord was speaking to saints of another dispensation after the rapture whose hope and rewards are earthly. Their problem is in ignoring the fact that Paul said the church and rapture were yet mysteries at the time the Lord spoke those words. Whether those earth-dwellers are worthy or not is decided in the judgments at His Second Advent. We who have His righteousness to our account are already worthy in Him and have already been re-born into the family of God through regeneration by the Holy Spirit. It is plain that the Lord was speaking of the end of the tribulation which precludes it being a description of the rapture. It is clearly seen from Paul’s teaching that the Holy Spirit is the one who restrains the revelation of the Antichrist until He is taken out of the way (2 Thess. 2:7). Although, there are even many Dispensationalists who say the restrainer is the church. But here Paul is speaking of a person, referring to Him as “He,” whereas, the church is always spoken of as “her;” female gender; the Bridegroom’s bride. What person except the Holy Spirit could have such power? John said: “You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world (1:Jo. 4:4). Apart from that, the church can hardly restrain herself, much less the Antichrist. It seems very clear that the rapture is the trigger that sets in motion Daniel’s 70th week and the tribulation. Nowhere else is anything mentioned or any program shown that would fit between the two events. And that is precisely what James and Paul both say. In 2 Thess. 2:7 Paul says: “He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed.” In the day when the kingdom is established Peter quotes Joel in Acts 2: 17 as saying “And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh.” Yet when speaking of the church, Paul said that God has “…sealed us and given us the Spirit in out hearts as a deposit” (2 Cor. 1:22). In Eph. 1: 13 he says we were “…sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.” Again he says in Eph. 4:30: “…do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption,” which would be the rapture. To answer the question, how long is the period between the rapture and the beginning of the tribulation? It is the same as when Paul in 1 Cor. 15L52 said about our change: “…in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.” The word “moment” used by Paul is the Greek word “atomos,’ where our word ‘atom,’ comes from. When the restraining Holy Spirit is taken out of the way (2 Thess. 2:7) at the rapture is when the lawless one “went out conquering and to conquer.” The above Scriptures establish the sure truth that when He is taken out of the way, we are also removed because Paul said we are sealed by Him, until the day of our redemption. Therefore, it is evident, if those being admitted into the kingdom are afterwards given the Holy Spirit, then, He was not indwelling believers during the tribulation. And that is because the “Restrainer” left with the church in the rapture. May the Lord bless Robert



dinosaur	Aug 8 2008, 07:01 PM Post #2
Advanced Member Posts: 666 Group: Members Member #93 Joined: January 3, 2006	Robert Aug 8 2008, 06:40 PM Therefore, it is evident, if those being admitted into the kingdom are afterwards given the Holy Spirit, then, He was not indwelling believers during the tribulation. And that is because the “Restrainer” left with the church in the rapture. It is not evident to me because I do not accept your conditional clause. The Holy Spirit will indwell every Christian believer during the Great Tribulation. How else do you expect the believers to endure until the end when Jesus returns to gather His own? The Holy Spirit is not constrained by theological treatises of mankind.



Robert	Aug 8 2008, 07:47 PM Post #3
Member Posts: 61 Group: Members Member #4,713 Joined: May 30, 2008	dinosaur says: "It is not evident to me because I do not accept your conditional clause. The Holy Spirit will indwell every Christian believer during the Great Tribulation. How else do you expect the believers to endure until the end when Jesus returns to gather His own?" Well, since you seem to be pretty convinced, and this is suppose to be a biblical discussion, why don't you enlighten us as with some Scripture like I did? It seems as though, you think because you can say it, it must be true. As to how believers will endure to the end, yep, that's a bummer. I am glad I will not be there. Robert Edited by Robert, Aug 8 2008, 09:51 PM.



gborn@earthlink.net	Aug 8 2008, 09:12 PM Post #4
Newbie Posts: 18 Group: Members Member #4,831 Joined: August 4, 2008	Hi Robert, Thank you for laying out this discussion. I layed out the case for the post-tribulation rapture in the thread entitled 'Is the tribulation for you?' in a post dated 8/3/08. I would like the opportunity to take your discussion and really review it in detail to at least identify areas of disagreement and possible reasons. this will take a few days, but, in the meantime, if you would like to review the other side of the discussion, it would not be hard to find the posting I put in on 8/3/08. Thanks, Gordon



dinosaur	Aug 8 2008, 09:24 PM Post #5
Advanced Member Posts: 666 Group: Members Member #93 Joined: January 3, 2006	Robert Aug 8 2008, 07:47 PM dinosaur says: "The Holy Spirit will indwell every Christian believer during the Great Tribulation." Well, since you seem to be pretty convinced, and this is suppose to be a biblical discussion, why don't you enlighten us as with some Scripture like I did? Robert Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (KJV)



Robert	Aug 8 2008, 09:46 PM Post #6
Member Posts: 61 Group: Members Member #4,713 Joined: May 30, 2008	dinosaur says: "Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." (KJV)" This discussion was supposed to be about the tribulation; not the present church. If you say believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit in the tribulation, then show us where it says that. Robert



Shershalom	Aug 8 2008, 09:58 PM Post #7
Advanced Member Posts: 584 Group: Members Member #810 Joined: March 20, 2007	Why would you think that the scripture only applies to present times, and not for all time? "No one can say that Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit." I Cor. 12:3 Does not the word of God stand forever? I would think that believing saints in the tribulation will still be making Jesus Lord of their lives.
	SherShalom "Blessed is HE that comes in the NAME of the LORD." MATTHEW 23:39


Robert	Aug 8 2008, 10:07 PM Post #8
Member Posts: 61 Group: Members Member #4,713 Joined: May 30, 2008	Shershalom Like I said before, show me where it says the Holy Spirit will endwell believers in the trib. Robert



Robert	Aug 8 2008, 10:13 PM Post #9
Member Posts: 61 Group: Members Member #4,713 Joined: May 30, 2008	Thanks Gordon for your reply. In the original post I was quite long, in order to make my case. Perhaps for the readers sake, it would be better in our discussions if we pick out one point and keep our post somewhat brief. Robert



Shershalom	Aug 8 2008, 11:21 PM Post #10
Advanced Member Posts: 584 Group: Members Member #810 Joined: March 20, 2007	Robert wrote: "When the restraining Holy Spirit is taken out of the way (2 Thess. 2:7) at the rapture is when the lawless one “went out conquering and to conquer.” II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains (will do so) until he is taken out of the way." I presume this is the only verse you interpret for the Holy Spirit being removed at time of rapture. Well, in context, nothing of the harpazo/rapture is mentioned in preceding verses or verses following. Secondly, lawlessness was already present at the time this was written as well as can be seen in today's society. Thirdly, you may want to give consideration that this unidentified restrainer may be the great prince Michael who stands watch over the people (Daniel 12:1). I am presupposing - but it may be his job to restrain from the full blast of evil being allowed on the earth. My greek new testament transliteration reads II Thess 2:7 as: "For the mystery already operates of lawlessness, there the restraining just now until out of (the) midst it comes." (And I've no idea how to interpret that!) The personal pronoun "he" is not even present. You also identify the lawless one as the one who "went out conquering and to conquer". Rev. 6:2 only identifies this conquering one who appears at the opening of the first seal as a rider on a white horse with a bow, and a crown. This rider is not identified as the "lawless one." Now is there any other verse that "says" believers are not indwelt by the Holy Spirit in the tribulation? It seems to me that believers slain for the word of God and for their testimony (Rev. 6:9-11) called out to the LORD. How can they call Him LORD without the Holy Spirit? Thanks for sharing.
	SherShalom "Blessed is HE that comes in the NAME of the LORD." MATTHEW 23:39


kgreen20	Aug 8 2008, 11:23 PM Post #11
Advanced Member Posts: 1,526 Group: Members Member #96 Joined: January 7, 2006	[scratches forehead] I thought you were a pre-Tribber, Shershalom. You're talking like a post-Tribber now.



dinosaur	Aug 8 2008, 11:30 PM Post #12
Advanced Member Posts: 666 Group: Members Member #93 Joined: January 3, 2006	Shershalom Aug 8 2008, 09:58 PM Why would you think that the scripture only applies to present times, and not for all time? Does not the word of God stand forever? Dispensationalists deduce specific theological concepts according to their interpretations of Scripture. Dispensationalists reject verses which contradict their predetermined assumptions, resulting in some outlandish conclusions. The words of dispensationalists will disintegrate, but the Word of God will stand forever.



DaveLovesJesus	Aug 8 2008, 11:52 PM Post #13
Advanced Member Posts: 153 Group: Members Member #4,761 Joined: July 7, 2008	Robert Aug 8 2008, 10:07 PM Shershalom Like I said before, show me where it says the Holy Spirit will endwell believers in the trib. Robert The restrainer may be the Holy Spirit, but maybe He'll get out the way of the anti-christ, but no where does it say the Holy Spirit leaves the believer. I will give my opinion because I've been studying Revelation lately and have read through it 4 times. There are Chapters out of the main timeline, but there is a sequence of events that signify 2 "catchings" from the earth. Now this is my opinion and I would love to hear additional info on the topic... If the book of Revelation contains everything from the Rapture to Revelation, the following sequence of events seem to take place. * Letter to the churches Revelation 2 and 3 * Seals 1 through 6 open Revelation 6 * The 144,000 sealed Revelation 7 * John sees the great multitude (too numerous to count)... so by seal #6 they are there in heaven. Revelation doesn't say when they actually get there, but after the 144k are sealed, they are seen, which means either beforehand to the moment after the 144k are sealed, they are there. This looks like the Rapture to me. So in my opinion, this is the time period when the Rapture happens and they have "come out" of the great tribulation, which means it has to have started before they came out. Somewhere between seal 1 to 144k sealed. This is in Revelation 7 as well * The 6 trumpets are blown: Revelation 8-9 * 7 Thunders message concealed, Revelation 10 * 2 witnesses and then 7th trumpet Revelation 11 * Revelation 14: 144k with Jesus, then catch verse 14. I believe those that have accepted the Lord because of the ministry of the 144k are harvested... see verse 15-16 of Rev 14. Then God pours out another harvest that inflicts wrath upon the wicked left on the Earth. * 7 "last" plagues on man left on the earth Revelation 15 - 16 * Revelation 17-18 Babylon falls * Armageddon Rev 19 I guess you could argue the Rapture is before the book of Revelation and that's possible, but there are two harvests shown in Revelation. Please correct me if you believe me to be wrong.... I'm just following the possible timeline I see in Revelation at the moment. Just thought I'd share.... FYI, I'm a pan-tribber. I'd like to be with Jesus the first chance possible unless He has something for me here, but I am willing to wait if He so chooses to use me. Anyway, pray for me as I continue to study Revelation, especially if you don't agree with my timeline. God bless, DaveLovesJesus



kgreen20	Aug 9 2008, 12:06 AM Post #14
Advanced Member Posts: 1,526 Group: Members Member #96 Joined: January 7, 2006	The restrainer is the Holy Spirit, as He works through the Church. Once we're removed, He will return to working as He did during Old Testament times.



Shershalom	Aug 9 2008, 07:45 AM Post #15
Advanced Member Posts: 584 Group: Members Member #810 Joined: March 20, 2007	Kathy ~ I do presently believe in a pre-tribulation rapture since it holds the strongest position overall from scripture. What did I say that would indicate a post-trib position? Where in Scripture does it specifically say that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, Kathy? What specific scripture do you base "Once we're removed, He will return to working as He did during Old Testament times" on? In my studies, I try not to use speculation for doctrinal position. I do my best to study scripture by scripture, so having biblical references help me to understand more fully and to strengthen my faith. (To the mid/post tribulationists following this thread: Please note that I do read and study your millenial positions as well, as I am interested in the truth, the whole truth, and nothing bu the truth, so help me God, Amen.)
	SherShalom "Blessed is HE that comes in the NAME of the LORD." MATTHEW 23:39


DaveLovesJesus	Aug 9 2008, 08:08 AM Post #16
Advanced Member Posts: 153 Group: Members Member #4,761 Joined: July 7, 2008	Shershalom, I think the question you ask is one that may not be able to be answered. It is simply "restrainer"... Someone told me once that it was Michael the archangel, I've heard the Holy Spirit (which is possible, but not confirmable), but we may never know for sure on this side of heaven. God will show us on that day.... God bless, DaveLovesJesus



kgreen20	Aug 9 2008, 09:44 AM Post #17
Advanced Member Posts: 1,526 Group: Members Member #96 Joined: January 7, 2006	I give the same response to your question, Shershalom, that I gave to one who wanted to know where in the Bible it teaches an age of accountability. No one Bible verse comes right out and says it. The evidence is there, but you have to put the pieces together as you would a jugsaw puzzle. Once it's put together, the evidence favors a dispensationalist view--namely, that the Tribulation will be the last 7 years of the Age of the Law, not the last 7 years of the Age of Grace. Therefore, the Holy Spirit will return to acting as He did before Jesus came. The sealing and indwelling of all believer began with the Church, and it will end with the Church. Edited by kgreen20, Aug 9 2008, 09:45 AM.



dinosaur	Aug 9 2008, 10:42 AM Post #18
Advanced Member Posts: 666 Group: Members Member #93 Joined: January 3, 2006	kgreen20 Aug 9 2008, 09:44 AM No one Bible verse comes right out and says it. The evidence is there, but you have to put the pieces together as you would a jugsaw puzzle. Once it's put together, the evidence favors a dispensationalist view--namely, that the Tribulation will be the last 7 years of the Age of the Law, not the last 7 years of the Age of Grace. What do you do with the remnant pieces which cannot fit into your assembled jigsaw puzzle?



dinosaur	Aug 9 2008, 11:51 AM Post #19
Advanced Member Posts: 666 Group: Members Member #93 Joined: January 3, 2006	Robert Aug 8 2008, 07:47 PM dinosaur says: "The Holy Spirit will indwell every Christian believer during the Great Tribulation." Well, since you seem to be pretty convinced, and this is suppose to be a biblical discussion, why don't you enlighten us as with some Scripture like I did? It seems as though, you think because you can say it, it must be true. Robert It is true not because I say it but because it is in the Bible. "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." --- John 14:16-18 (KJV) The Lord Jesus Christ gave this promise to all believers, in the past, present and future. What began at Pentecost is still in effect today and will continue according to His Word.



Shershalom	Aug 9 2008, 01:44 PM Post #20
Advanced Member Posts: 584 Group: Members Member #810 Joined: March 20, 2007	dinosaur Aug 9 2008, 11:51 AM It is true not because I say it but because it is in the Bible. "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." --- John 14:16-18 (KJV) The Lord Jesus Christ gave this promise to all believers, in the past, present and future. What began at Pentecost is still in effect today and will continue according to His Word. And a good word is always worth repeating!!
	SherShalom "Blessed is HE that comes in the NAME of the LORD." MATTHEW 23:39


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