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| Thomas S. Gibsons reply to Rapture | |
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| Topic Started: Aug 24 2008, 07:52 PM (594 Views) | |
| Kemer | Aug 24 2008, 07:52 PM Post #1 |
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This is a relpy from Thomas Gibson about the rapture. I dont plan on sturring up anyones emotions. This has been a point of study for me for at least 35 years. I have never found a single Scripture that states we are to be taken out before with the Rapture. I Thessalonians 4:15-18 tells of the rapture. Verse 16 is the Lord's return. So the rapture occurs at His return, not sooner. Also look at Matthew 24:4-31. Verse 30 the Lord's return. Verse 31 the rapture. It is common practice to believe and preach that the rapture takes us out, but the fact is no one can find any supporting passages of the Bible for that belief. Indeed, the teaching is only about 350 years old, originating in Britian. Before that time no one considered this idea. It was certainly not believed by the early church. Remember that the most important part of this is to be Spiriturally prepared. It is the Lord and the Holy Spirit that will guide us through. Without a close relationship with the Lord that includes pray and fasting, we will be in serious trouble. The church today is simply not prepared for the end times. It must wake up and begin to move to a spiritual correct position; that is, to be humbly obedient to the Holy Spirit in prayer and fasting. None of this making a name for yourself, just serving each other, preaching the gospel to anyone who will listen, feeding the poor, etc. Hope this helps, God bless Thomas S. Gibson |
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"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Matthew 7:21 | |
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| revcc | Aug 24 2008, 10:21 PM Post #2 |
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You are right. But the idea has only been popular for less than 100 years. Scofield popularized the notion (and invented the term) in 1909. Inspired by the legend of a Scottish girls 1830 vision, he developed his reference bible around this invented theology. The theology of the rapture has been called the "american doctrine" because it assumes, within a country like America, Christians could never endure such tribulation and suffering. Most Christians throughout the world reject the doctrine as sloppy wishful thinking theology. |
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| kgreen20 | Aug 24 2008, 10:32 PM Post #3 |
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[sigh] The whole pre-Trib movement did not begin with Margaret MacDonald. Her vision wasn't even pre-Trib. Moreover, John Darby did not believe in the charismatic gifts, so he would not have given her vision any credence, anyway. This is one of the most stubborn of the post-Trib myths and the hardest to get rid of. |
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| revcc | Aug 24 2008, 10:53 PM Post #4 |
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I agree that Margret Macdonald was not pre-Trib. Just a poor girl with strange visions. It is well-documented however that word of her visions so attracted John Darby that he made a trip to the area to witness himself what was going on. Yes you are right -- he did not approve of the ecstatic episodes that he witnessed. But it is significant that Darby, after returning from Scotland, began to teach that Christ's second coming would occur in two phases. There can hardly he any doubt that the visions of Miss Macdonald are the source of the modern doctrine. The idea of a two-phase rapture does not occour before this in church history. |
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| dinosaur | Aug 25 2008, 09:38 AM Post #5 |
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--- clear and simple enough for a child to comprehend. --- no convoluted extrapolations of eschatological import. That's why his truthful answer will pass right over many members' heads. *WHOOSSSHHH* 
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| Shershalom | Aug 25 2008, 11:03 AM Post #6 |
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Me thinks Mr. Dinosaur got up on the wrong side of the cave this morning. I sense Mr. Dino is mocking the what he thinks are the "weaker" brethren (i.e. those of us who hold fast in faith to Messiah's Harpazo Snatch prior to tribulation times) - this is a no-no. |
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SherShalom "Blessed is HE that comes in the NAME of the LORD." MATTHEW 23:39 | |
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| METHUSELAH | Aug 25 2008, 11:12 AM Post #7 |
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Guys just want to have fun...
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| Forgive someone today! You'll both feel better... | |
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| Wil | Aug 25 2008, 12:05 PM Post #8 |
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Fun is good but not at the expense of other members beliefs, that is a no-no here. This was previously posted here with no link given, a main scriptural reason for a pre-trib rapture, as can be seen things are not always as clear as they appear, and why there are the different views on this issue. What Is Imminency? In doing some research on the doctrine of imminency, I noticed few people take the time to actually define what prophetic imminency means. First, let us look at the general definition of the key word “imminent”: "The quality or condition of being about to occur." Imminency, as it relates to Bible prophecy, simply means that the return of Jesus Christ for the Church can happen at any moment. No warning signs will indicate a short-term countdown. We as Christians remain on alert 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. If a wife knows her husband normally gets home from work shortly after 4:00 PM, she knows that beginning at 4:00 PM, his arrival is imminent. If the woman knows her husband has to work overtime, the imminency of his 4:00 PM return is then in doubt. The only way for the rapture to be truly imminent is to have it transpire before the tribulation. If the Church were required to wait until after the manifestation of certain events, then there would be no doctrine of imminency. The Granddaddy Of Proofs The pretribulation rapture is the only view that allows for the rapture to be imminent in its timing. All the other views require a number of prophetic occurrences to take place before the rapture can be declared imminent. To be looking for the imminent return of Christ, you have to believe in a pre-trib rapture. Jesus repeatedly said that His return for the Church would be a surprise. The Lord even went beyond that by saying He would return “as a thief” when believers generally won't be expecting Him to come for them. "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Matthew 24:36). "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing" (Matthew 24:42-46 KJV). "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 25:13). "And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power" (Acts 1:7). Because we have no way to refute the fact that we will not know the timing of our Lord's return, the tribulation is a barrier to the rapture. No wonder the late John Walvoord called imminency "the heart of Pretribulationism." This type of “any-moment” language doesn't fit a post-trib rapture. If Jesus were prevented from coming until after the battle of Magog, the rise of Antichrist, and the Mark of the Beast, we would have no need to watch for Him before the tribulation. If the Church were required to go through the seven-year tribulation, you would expect the New Testament writers to have warned us to be prepared for trying times. On the contrary, the New Testament writers repeatedly tell the Church to be comforted by the "coming of the Lord" (1 Thes 4:18). The word "comfort" alone strongly implies the rapture will take place before the tribulation. Some anti-imminency folks try to solve the problem they have with the rapture's any-moment occurrence by redefining it as merely indicating that Christ will return soon. The speed of Christ's advent is not the issue. If an event is required to take place before the Lord can return, there is no need to remain watchful. If a person should make it through the tribulation until the point when the mid-trib, pre-wrath, and post-trib folks expect the rapture to occur, it would then become possible for the rapture to be classified as “imminent.” However, once you solve the problem of imminency, you create another one regarding the restrictions against knowing the timing of the rapture. Because the duration of the tribulation is already known, post-tribbers have the hardest time dealing with the rapture's timing. Some of them have tried to suggest that believers who make it through the tribulation will lazily lose track of the nearness of Christ's second coming. If a Christian has been lucky enough to survive a host of apocalyptic calamities and elude the Antichrist's secret police for at least 3 1/2 years, I cannot imagine that he would be oblivious to the nearness of the Lord's return at the 7-year mark. If I were reduced to the point of having to hide in a forest and forage through dead tree bark to find beetles and grubs to sustain myself, I'm certain my every thought would be focused on the Lord's return. "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Mat 24:36). Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him” (Mat 25:1-6) "Take ye heed, watch and pray; for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the Master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly He find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch" (Mark 13:33-37). |
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| Israeli | Aug 25 2008, 12:10 PM Post #9 |
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I'd LOVE to be surprised, SUDDENLY by His taking us away. The promise of an imminent return would cause one to indeed be prepared each day as if it were your last. |
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| kgreen20 | Aug 25 2008, 12:21 PM Post #10 |
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That is so right, Israeli! And I believe that's one of the results the Lord intends. Trust me, you will be happily surprised!    Edited by kgreen20, Aug 25 2008, 12:22 PM.
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| justme | Aug 25 2008, 01:34 PM Post #11 |
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I cannot find that word 'imminent' in my bible. I never even got the whole Christ could come at any minute idea from the bible. That is man's doing. None of those scriptures wil posted say that. Regarding this whole idea I remember when I was new in the faith back in the mid 70s the church was preaching a lot on this idea. So I looked in the Word and found there were certain things that must happen before the rapture would take place. So everytime I heard a sermon on our imminent catching away I would know the preacher did not understand. So fast forward 30+ years and I see we are still here. And there have been a whole lot of things come to pass since then that I knew must happen. But guess what...there are still more scripture that has to be fulfilled first. One of the most plain is the revealing of the antichrist. Also I do not believe 'this gospel' has been preached in all the world. The gospel as the early church proclaimed to set the captives free, heal the sick, raise the dead, etc. No we have exported man's gospel to the world which is money. Give to the man of God and God will open the windows of heaven and fill your buckets with money. Man's gospel that says just repeat this sinner's prayer and you are good to go to heaven. Where is that in scripture? Where is the holy living preaching, the seperation from the world, the touch not the unclean thing? Where is the fruits unto repentance, the seperate life? Not this look like the world, act like the world, but say a little sinners prayer and go to church and you are ok. Jesus said MANY shall say to me on that day have we not...and he will say I NEVER knew you. 2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? |
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| kgreen20 | Aug 25 2008, 01:43 PM Post #12 |
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You can't find the words "Trinity," "Bible," or "Rapture" in the Bible either, yet you do see all three described in God's Word if you put the pieces together. The best references to to doctrine of imminence is the "thief in the night" scenario, found in 1st Thessalonians, as well as Jesus' statement that no one would know the day or the hour. Edited by kgreen20, Aug 25 2008, 01:44 PM.
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| lionschild | Aug 25 2008, 03:17 PM Post #13 |
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If there is a pre trib rapture what harm is that to a Christian who does not believe in a pre trib rapture? Likewise if there is no pre trib rapture what harm is that to a Christian who believes strongly in a pre trib rapture. These are honest questions Ive had on my mind. |
| The King has need of thee! | |
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| Shershalom | Aug 25 2008, 04:14 PM Post #14 |
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If (or WHEN) there is the pre-trib harpazo, then we will be safe and sound with the LORD, celebrating His goodness, singing His praises and sitting at His feet learning all the truth of the WORD together! Hallelujah! And should the Harpazo be delayed for a different time period, be it mid or pre-wrath or even post, then the LORD will indeed let those of His own be made aware of what we must do, where we must go, and to rely on His strength and resources. And we still say, His judgments are merciful and rejoice. Hallelujah! |
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SherShalom "Blessed is HE that comes in the NAME of the LORD." MATTHEW 23:39 | |
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| Pinky1441 | Aug 25 2008, 04:47 PM Post #15 |
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Or you can look at it this way! From the 5 doves site: http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/aug2008/brucew823-2.htm Bruce Warner (23 Aug 2008) "THERE ARE TWO DISTINCT AND DIFFERENT GROUPS IN HEAVEN WEARING WHITE ROBES" Dear Doves, There are TWO different and distinct groups in Heaven wearing white robes, and the robes are white by TWO different and distinct methods. One group is identified as "His Bride", and the other group is identified as "a great multitude" in Scriptures. Rev 19:8 (His Bride) "Fine linen, bright and clean, WAS GIVEN HER to wear." Rev 7:14 (a great multitude) "---, These are they WHO HAVE COME OUT OF THE GREAT TRIBULATION; THEY HAVE WASHED THEIR ROBES and made them white in the Blood of the Lamb." Notice that the 'Bride of Christ' "WAS GIVEN" her "fine linen" "bright and clean" "to wear", as opposed to 'the multitude' who had to "wash their (own) robes" in "the Blood of the Lamb" to "make them white", and ALSO THEY "came out of the great tribulation". Notice that there is no mention of the "Bride" coming out of the "great tribulation" because we know that the "Bride" is raptured before the tribulation begins, BUT "the multitude" is a different story. They get to Heaven by "coming out of the great tribulation" at some point after it begins, and AFTER "they wash their (own) robes in the Blood of the Lamb to make them white". They, the multitude, must put forth an effort of their own to make their robes white. The "Bride" belongs to the "Philadelphia Church" who has an "open door" to Heaven by rapture, while "the multitude" belongs to the "Laodicea Church" and must "come out of the great tribulation" to get to Heaven. Come Lord Jesus! Bruce Warner Edited by Pinky1441, Aug 25 2008, 04:47 PM.
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PINKY ..."In the latter days you will understand it perfectly." Jeremiah 23:20b  | |
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| Israeli | Aug 25 2008, 05:37 PM Post #16 |
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Pinky, Bruce Warner's word was also posted at "End Times Chat" "Food for thought- the bride..." I find it extremely plausible! Edited by Israeli, Aug 25 2008, 05:39 PM.
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| Pinky1441 | Aug 25 2008, 06:09 PM Post #17 |
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And soooo it is! 
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PINKY ..."In the latter days you will understand it perfectly." Jeremiah 23:20b | |
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| autoimmune | Aug 25 2008, 06:42 PM Post #18 |
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I agree with Mr. Warner that there are two groups within the Body of Christ, but I believe there is only one bride. In Revelations 19 the Bride is given her dress, but ONLY after she has "been made ready." We are told directly before that how it came about--through the tribulation, in which organized religion, the Whore of Babylon has been chastized and destroyed. People mistakenly think this means the people are destroyed. It is the SYSTEM which is destroyed. Those who have come out of that system before hand (the overcomers) do not suffer her "stripes" of retribution. Those who do not (the bride) suffer greatly during the destruction of the religious system, but can be cleansed and "made ready" during the tribulation. Martyrs. Those who shed their blood during the tribulation. The two groups in Rev 7 and Rev 19 are the same bride. A difference has to be forced if one uses terminology that equates the bride with the entire Body of Christ, without seeing that there is also the groom/man-child. The two together become one flesh-one bone, one Body in Christ. Mary Ellen |
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| SpiritIsWilling | Aug 25 2008, 06:54 PM Post #19 |
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Here is a testimony from a lady by the name of Elizabeth who was shown a vision of end times: Angels On Assignment My oldest was born in Feb. of 1987 and I had her bundled up and ready for sleep. She later woke me for a bottle feeding and then I laid back down when finished. As my head hit the pillow, I felt myself swept up into a bright tunnel at a high rate of speed, lights streaking by me. I stopped at an unfamiliar place where I stood watching planes and cars moving about when words came to me saying, "No one will be able to fly, or travel without the approval of this person." My baby woke me a second time and I did the usual diaper change and gave her another bottle, not aware of what time it was. I was tired and only wanted to sleep. But again, when I rested my head on my pillow, I felt my body sucked up at a high rate of speed. And then I found myself in Rome, Italy. I knew I was standing outside the Vatican, staring at the huge, beige, sandy-colored columns.  (Webmaster's note: When Elizabeth saw the picture above , this is what she emailed to me: "Oh my goodness, those are the columns!!! I was inside walking in between those and the wall. That is so amazing! Thank you for sharing!") I did not know why I was here except that I was suppose to witness something. It was like a palace inside and full of excited newspaper reporters and press corp. They were filled with excitement, as if a celebrity were there. Their small cameras were flashing when I saw a man (I don't feel led to describe him, so please forgive me) who had an injury to his head. Then I awoke to my child crying again. By then I knew the Lord was showing me something, but I wasn't quite sure what it was I was seeing, but I knew it was in Scripture. My husband was sleeping and unaware of anything, as I put my daughter to bed a third time. Again, as I laid down, I found myself immediately back inside the Vatican. The reporters were still doting over this man. When I moved closer and gazed into his eyes, he appeared possessed by evil. He looked at me and immediately I was frightened, and wanted to get away and hide myself from everyone there. I knew he was a false person speaking for someone else, and I felt the presence of evil. I then spoke to an unseen, strong angel who was communicating with my spirit. I was crying bitterly at this point asking him, "Please take me home. I don't want to be here. I want to go home." The angel immediately touched me on my shoulder and I heard him say in my spirit, "You're not left behind, you're only here watching." Peace came over me. I was not alone. This huge, powerful angel was with me. I turned and saw my cousin Maggie standing by (The Lord uses Maggie to confirm things to me - she's still alive today). Maggie's face was glowing when she said to me," Do you want to know this man's number?" She smiled and said, "It is 666." Then she was gone. This indicated to me that the Lord was speaking to me - that this was not just a dream. Then I found myself in front of a door in the Vatican observing the people who were amazed at this so-called wonderful person. I felt like this man was deceiving them all, including the media. As I headed towards these huge, glazed-like oak doors, I felt the most evil, terrifying experiences were happening behind the closed doors. I did not want to open those doors, but I did anyway. The room was dark and all I could see were the silhouette's of the people inside. There was a terrifying person sitting in the middle of the room on a throne, and I knew it was the antichrist. I wanted to run out of there. Though the angel told me that even the reporters couldn't see me, I didn't want to get close to any of them. I saw that the antichrist had authority, but that it had been gained by force. I saw the silhouette's of priests, holding staffs, who had helped the antichrist gain in popularity. These priests were evil too. I trembled and was terrified knowing that I had to tell people. Then I was taken back home. As soon as my spirit was back, I awoke my still sleeping baby and ran to the front door to make sure we were not left behind. I know that to the natural man this experience is hard to believe. But I don't question these appearances, I have spoken to angels for long periods of time. I see them moving around often. I welcome whatever the Lord wants me to know and do. I hope this will give you glimpse of how real our Lord is and that angels do appear to us still today. Bless you all; receive this blessing! |
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Matthew 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 
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| autoimmune | Aug 25 2008, 07:28 PM Post #20 |
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I agree with the vision Elizabeth saw, but I think she was seeing an image of the Catholic Church as representative of the Christian religious SYSTEM, which is the Whore of Babylon of Revelation. With over 32,000 different sects, Protestants don't have the same single image of one gigantic icon representing the religious system that drives them as well. So, I'm not surprised when this image is used within visions. From what I've read, Catholics have many prophecies concerning a coming time when the Pope and his bishops will be driven from Rome, killed and persecuted, and an anti-pope takes over (ex. third secret of Fatima). So, they may understand Elizabeth's prophecy the same way, as a reference to the time when the the anti-Christ takes power and the church suffers. For me, the whore system includes ALL Christian denominations that mistake worldly fame, money and power for the Kingdom of God and use religion for their own ends, instead of God's. For the record, I would see the person in the dream more as the false prophet than the anti-christ. Not that the anti-christ can't be a religious personage who comes to power over the entire world, exercising both political and religious power, but I have always considered the two as separate and distinct, working together. Mary Ellen |
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