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| Is the Tribulation for you? | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 7 2008, 12:54 AM (3,499 Views) | |
| Shershalom | Jul 10 2008, 08:50 PM Post #21 |
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MOREofHIM wrote: "The four winds ARE JUDGMENTS sent by the hand of God. So after the judgments bring about repentance, God will regather (harvest) his people." 1. Why do you say that the four (4) winds are judgments? Are there just 4 of them - Revelations seem to indicate a whole bit more than just 4 ... What other references do you have that the terms WINDS in scripture = judgments? 2. So you are saying that the ELECT (i.e. believers) are in/under the end time judgements? |
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SherShalom "Blessed is HE that comes in the NAME of the LORD." MATTHEW 23:39 | |
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| MoreofHim | Jul 12 2008, 02:39 PM Post #22 |
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Hey Shershalom, thanks for asking. I'll do my best to open this up for you. So bear with me. 1 Peter 4:17 tells us that judgment begins at the House of God. So it shouldn't come as a surprise to a true believer that God would judge or measure his own house. We see measurements being made for His temple in Revelations 11:1 and mirrored in Zechariah 2:1. God’s judgment must come to all men, whether in this age or the ages to come—none of us are exempt. “For everyone will be salted with fire, and every sacrifice will be salted with salt.” (Mark 9:49) Judgments are made every day in a court of law, some bring favor, some are punitive, and some are corrective. But even when they are not in your favor, they are not entirely bad, because they result in correction and a lesson learned. When it comes to bringing about the plans and purposes of God judgment is not an end, but simply a means to bring about a greater purpose, that being, the “restoration of all things” (Acts 3:21; Col. 1:20). We must understand that God’s judgments are not directed towards the spirit of man, but the flesh (or self-will) of man! Remember, “God loves the sinner, but hates the sin.” Judgments are directed toward anything that hinders the work of God in our lives. We’ve all inherited corruptible bodies that produce sin and death, and so we must, through the judgment of the Cross, be separated from our self-will—just as wheat is separated from chaff. Any thought, motive, or deed that seeks to exalt itself above the knowledge of God (and keeps us from knowing the fullness of Christ) must be destroyed. God brings us through “fiery trials” and tribulations--and as we submit to God’s work of judgment in our lives, we become more and more like Christ. Chastisement, a milder form of God’s judgment, must come to all of God’s elect. “For whom the Lord loves, He chastens, and scourges (whips) every son whom He receives.” (Heb. 12:6) Okay…, so let's take a look at God's word and see if we can glean an understanding about the FOUR WINDS of God and what their purpose is. Jeremiah 49:36 'I will bring upon Elam THE FOUR WINDS From the four ends of heaven, And will scatter them to all these winds;And there will be no nation To which the outcasts of Elam will not go. Daniel 7:2 Daniel said, "I was looking in my vision by night, and behold, THE FOUR WINDS of heaven were stirring up the great sea. Daniel 8:8 Then the male goat magnified himself exceedingly. But as soon as he was mighty, the large horn was broken; and in its place there came up four conspicuous horns toward THE FOUR WINDS of heaven. Zechariah 2:6 "Up up! Flee from the land of the north," declares the LORD, "for I have dispersed you as THE FOUR WINDS of the heavens," declares the LORD. From these verses it becomes clear that the FOUR WINDS of Heaven go forth over the face of the whole earth, in every direction, just like the natural winds of our own atmosphere. It also becomes clear that they are directed by the hand of God and that they are redemptive and sent forth to accomplish the plans and purposes of God. They either scatter or they gather. The power of the FOUR WINDS is tremendous, both figuratively and practically. These winds can churn the great sea, and uproot and scatter powerful empires (Daniel 7:2, 8:8, 11:4, Zechariah 2:6). But individually, these winds have a purpose as well. The EAST wind is a distinctly powerful, dry and hot wind, and it is recorded as a wind that brings forth judgment. Crops wither and die in an east wind. This wind can be seen bringing famine in Genesis 41:5-7 and locusts in Exodus 10:12-13. Now while it brings forth judgment against the enemies of God, it also can be seen bringing about deliverance to God’s people. In Exodus 14:21 the Lord brought a strong east wind that made the sea into dry land and divided the waters of the Red Sea for the exodus of the children of Israel, but for the Egyptian army it was destruction. The east wind can also be seen dealing with the rebellion of one of God’s own. "And it came to pass, when the sun did arise, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and wished in himself to die, and said, It is better for me to die than to live." As illustrated in the life of Jonah, the East Wind came as intense heat to try his thoughts and to consume what is not of God. God causes the East wind to blow in the heavens and by His power he brings in the SOUTH WIND. The South wind represents warm summer heat that ripens and sweetens the fruit. In Zechariah 9: 11-14 we see that after the east wind blew, that God brought Zion provision and restored to her double, bringing forth abundance into her household. In the Song of Solomon 4:16 it reads: “Awake, O north wind and come, O south. Blow upon my garden that its spices may flow out. Let my beloved come to his garden and eat its pleasant fruits.” Notice that the South wind together with the North wind symbolize pleasantness and provision. When the south wind blows, it will bring refreshing and comfort to God's people. It will be a time of spiritual understanding, provision, and rest. After Job's three religious friends were finished with their criticism of Job, Elihu, by the Spirit, brought the refreshing South Wind into Job's life. "How thy garments are warm, when he quieteth the earth by the south wind?" *** Job 37:17 The Apostle Peter, who was given the keys to the kingdom, spoke of those who will have prepared their lives for the times that are ahead of us: "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing (south wind) shall come from the presence of the Lord;" *** Acts 3:19 The South Wind will bring the peace of God that passeth all understanding, *** Philippians 4:7. The NORTH WIND brings stinging rain, thunder, lightening, and hail. It represents times of adversity, disappointment, emptiness and scarcity in our lives. But this same wind also brings about the presence of God. In Proverbs 25: 23 it is written that the North wind brings forth rain. This is a type and shadow of the Holy Spirit. A great picture of this is seen in Ezekiel 37:9 where the Lord tells Ezekiel "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Come from THE FOUR WINDS, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life." In this illustration, Ezekiel is seeing a valley full of dry bones. This is indicative to those who have been cast to the four winds (scattered), reaping judgments, to later be raised to new life by God himself. This is a picture of God sustaining us when we are no longer able to sustain ourselves. In our weakness, He is made strong, 2 Corinthians 12:10 When the North blows upon God's people, they will partake of His pleasant fruits, the fruits of the Spirit. But notice that it takes both the stresses of the north wind, and the peace of the south wind to bring to fruit to maturity. In the Song of Solomon 4:16, Solomon was speaking of those who would make up God's Holy City, the Bride of Christ. He wrote, "Awake, O North Wind, come thou south, blow upon my garden." We are the garden of the Lord. "I went down into the garden of nuts to see the fruits of the valley, and to see whether the vine flourished, and the pomegranates budded." *** Song of Solomon 6:11. We are His trees of righteousness. God was speaking of checking the fruit we have produced in our lives. These are the fruits of the Spirit, and His North Wind blows upon us so the spices may flow out of our lives. Spices, in the Bible, are used as sweet-smelling fragrances and also as healing balms. Paul spoke of these: "For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish." *** II Corinthians 2:15 There is one more wind that must blow upon the earth, and that is the WEST WIND. When the West Wind blows it brings winter rains. This is the season that God will restore the earth as it was in the day of His creation. The West Wind only appears once in the Bible. The West Wind blows from the setting of the sun. This represents the end of the age. When God sent the plague of locusts, every green thing was destroyed in Egypt. Moses recorded: "For they covered the face of the whole earth, so that the land was darkened; and they did eat every herb of the land, and all the fruit of the trees which the hail had left: and there remained not any green thing in the trees, or in the herbs of the field, through all the land of Egypt." *** Exodus 10:15 The locusts brought total destruction upon Egypt. But God has promised to send deliverance and restoration upon Egypt. Moses revealed: "And the Lord turned a mighty strong west wind, which took away the locusts, and cast them into the Red Sea; there remained not one locust in all the coasts of Egypt." *** Exodus 10:19 Those who know their God and walk in His ways can expect the West Wind to blow in their lives. The West Wind brings the Restoration of all things after the other winds have taken their course. All the things that have brought devastation to our lives will be removed. Only those things that bring glory to the Father will remain. The mighty wind of the Spirit, alone, will bring salvation to God's people. Now today many are teaching the judgment of God is not for His people. Peter, by the Spirit, forewarned all who would read to understand that judgment must begin at the house of God. He then asked the question, "What shall the end be for those who obey not the gospel of God?" This is not written to the world, because God does not expect the worldly people to obey His gospel. This is written to those who are called by His name. God is going to judge His whole house.
Yes. The redemptive judgments to destroy the flesh and every hindrance that keeps you from entering the Kingdom of God. "...flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption." 1 Corinthians 15:50 In these last days the FOUR WINDS will be released together across the face of the globe and will result in great turmoil. They will affect all mankind and nobody will be out of its reach. Destruction will come to the household of the wicked and unrepentent and deliverance and a way of escape will come to the elect. "And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. To Him be glory forever and ever!" 2 Timothy 4:18 7:1-3 - I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth holding in check the four winds of the earth that none should blow upon the earth or upon the sea or upon any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending out of the east, holding the seal of the living God. He cried out in a loud voice to the four angels who had the power to harm the earth and the sea: "Do no harm to the earth, nor to the sea, nor to the trees until we have sealed the servants of our God upon their foreheads." |
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| kgreen20 | Jul 12 2008, 03:29 PM Post #23 |
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Uh, say what? Are you saying that God is going to allow people who have refused Christ during the Tribulation, even to the point of accepting the Mark of the Beast, to enter the Millennium? Or that our resurrection bodies are going to have the ability to have children? Seems to me that what you're saying is not based on the Word of God, MoreofHim. I stand by what I said--for there to be a Millennium, there have to be mortal believers. Jesus is going to kill all the remaining unbelievers when He returns, because there will be no chance of salvation left for them. Only the surviving mortal believers will be permitted to enter the Millennium. And if the surviving believers are all Raptured just before Jesus returns, who's going to repopulate the earth? Every believer would already be immortal. Edited by kgreen20, Jul 12 2008, 03:30 PM.
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| MoreofHim | Jul 12 2008, 03:37 PM Post #24 |
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KG... you are adding to my words. I am asking you for scriptures to back up your theology. |
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| kgreen20 | Jul 12 2008, 03:48 PM Post #25 |
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Regarding whether a resurrected body can bear a child, I can refer you to Jesus' own words on that. He said that in the resurrection, we'll neither marry nor be given in marriage, but be like the angels in Heaven. That means our days of procreation will be over. (Remember when the Sadducees asked him which man would be the wife of this woman in the resurrection, since she'd had several husbands? That's when Jesus told them this.) As for whether people will be having children in the Millennium, there are Old Testament passages stating that they will. I cannot pull one up for you at this moment, but I've read them and I know they are there. As for whether unsaved people can be allowed to enter the Millennium--since you want Scriptural proof of what I have said, I will research that one and get back to you. Edited by kgreen20, Jul 12 2008, 10:26 PM.
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| kgreen20 | Jul 12 2008, 07:20 PM Post #26 |
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I'm back, MoreofHim. I told you, when I responded to your earlier questions, that I would do some research and get back to you. Since I wanted to do this as quickly as possible, I didn't have time to engage in any indepth research, so I went to someone who has--Jack Kelley. He has researched this subject in depth, so I knew he would be able to refer me to the Scripture references you requested. And he did. He referred me to an article he had written and posted on his Web site. I'm going to post a link to the article first, then I'll copy and paste the article itself below that. I hope it'll answer your question as to whether any unsaved people can enter the Millennium by providing the Scripture references you asked for. http://www.gracethrufaith.com/ikvot/the-sheep-and-goat-judgment-matt-25-31-46 The Sheep and Goat Judgment … Matt 25:31-46 Ikvot ha'Mashiach A Bible Study by Jack Kelley Read Matt 25:31-46 and immediately four questions come to mind, and answering them correctly takes a little doing. In fact, a number of respected commentators have missed the mark. As usual with the Bible, a careful reading combined with some logical deduction will go a long way toward bring the answers to light. The four questions are: 1. What is the time and place in which this judgment occurs? 2. Who is being judged? 3. Who are "these brothers of mine?" 4. What are the consequences of the judgment? We'll dissect the passage, address the questions as they appear, and summarize our findings at the end. First let's first clarify that this message from the Lord is technically not a parable, though it's often described as such. It does open with the Lord comparing Himself to a shepherd and the people of Earth to sheep and goats. But the rest of the account is the preview of an actual event, not a hypothetical story designed to illustrate a Biblical truth like parables are. Let's begin. "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. (Matt. 25:31-33) The First Question Please The first two questions come right off the bat. What is the time and place in which this judgment occurs and who is being judged? The passage itself identifies the time as right after the 2nd Coming and that makes the location Earth. In Joel 3:2 the prophet speaks of a time when the Lord will restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem and gather the nations together in the Valley of Jehoshaphat to hold them accountable for the way they've treated His people. Joel's prophecy is a reference to the Sheep and Goat judgment. Since the word Jehoshaphat means "the Lord Judges" and no place by that name can be found on Earth, many believe he's making reference to the Kidron Valley which separates the Mount of Olives from the Temple, and that the name describes what He's there to do, not where He is. Question Two Since this judgment is clearly post 2nd Coming, the Church cannot be the answer to question 2, "Who is being judged?" No matter what your preference for the placement of the rapture in the End Times scenario, proponents of all the major positions agree it happens before the 2nd Coming. (I should mention that "Post-Tribbers" have a big problem here because if the rapture occurs just before the Lord's return, there won't be any "sheep" left for this judgment. They would all have just been taken in the rapture.) And since one of the things that happen in the rapture is the instantaneous perfection of believers, no judgment subsequent to that would be necessary. No, the ones being judged here are those people of Earth who've survived the Great Tribulation. As we'll see, some of them have come to faith, but were too late for the rapture. And don't let the word nations fool you. It's only used to explain that this is a worldwide event. The Lord holds everyone personally accountable for his or her behavior. "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' (Matt. 25:34-40) Question Three The most obvious choice of identity for "these brothers of mine" is the Jewish people, from among whom the Messiah first came. Although all believers will be subject to persecution during the Great Tribulation, Jewish believers will be singled out for special attention in a final effort to eliminate them from the planet once and for all. And no doubt the 144,000 specially commissioned Messianic believers will head the enemy's list for extermination. (Rev. 7:1-8) You see, according to the prophet Hosea the Jewish people have to petition the Messiah to return. (Hosea 5:15-6:2) If Satan can wipe them all out before they can do that, he's won. That's why there've been such repeated efforts to destroy them over the last 2000 years. Racial discrimination of any kind is wrong, but anti-Semitism is Satanic. "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matt. 25:41-46) And The Final Question The way the standard for judgment is explained can also be a little misleading. "Whatever you did (not) do for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did (not) do for me." On first blush it appears that people are being rewarded for their good works, and punished for their failures. But the external actions He describes are simply tangible evidence of a faithful heart. The situation for Jewish believers in those days will become progressively worse and worse until they'll be dependent on the charitable acts of others for their very survival. And those who reach out to help them will do so at their extreme peril, since they'll be aiding and abetting a declared enemy every time they do. This is a crime punishable by death. To make matters worse there'll be snitches everywhere. What a perilous time! "It will be as though a man fled from a lion only to meet a bear; as though he entered his house and rested his hand on the wall only to have a snake bite him." (Amos 5:19) Only those whose hearts are fully dedicated to the Lord and know that He's on His way back for them will risk their own skins to help a stranger, especially when that stranger is an officially designated enemy. Only they will remember the Lord's answer to the question, "What is the greatest commandment?" "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind," He replied, "And the second is like it. Love your neighbor as yourself." (Matt. 22:37-39) In helping these strangers they're fulfilling both commandments, and the Lord, seeing their faith in action, will reward them accordingly. "Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world." Non-believers, having fallen for the deception of the antichrist and his false prophet, will have nothing to do with their leaders' enemies, and in fact many will be proud to act as volunteer spies, informing on them or even worse. They'll fulfill the Lord's own words, "A time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God." (John 16:2) They'll be sent to the place of eternal punishment prepared for the devil and his angels. Interesting. The place was prepared for Satan. Men have to choose to go there. The Sheep and Goat judgment then, is not a parable, but a clear warning to Tribulation Survivors that once the Lord returns, the time for accepting Him as their Savior will have ended and the consequences are severe and eternal. But notice how even after it's too late they call Him Lord? Read Paul's words from Philippians 2:9-11. Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. And in Zechariah 14:9, The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name. When He returns there will be no doubt anywhere as to Who He is. Everyone from the highest place in Heaven to those in the lowest place under the Earth, which includes Satan's domain, will bow before Him, agreeing that He's their Lord. But those He likened to the goats will have refused to accept Him as their Savior and will be sent away to eternal punishment. Having turned down His offer of pardon in favor of making their own way, they will now have eternity to contemplate the folly of their actions. They're the ones of whom He said, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven (Matt. 7:21). For My Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:40) "I have told you all this in advance," the Lord says, "So that you would know." The Sheep and Goat judgment stands as an unmistakably clear look into the future so that all who will may come and be forgiven. The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life. (Rev 22:17) Better do it right now, while there's time. For if you listen closely you can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah. 06-06-04 Edited by kgreen20, Jul 12 2008, 10:28 PM.
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| kgreen20 | Jul 12 2008, 07:23 PM Post #27 |
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That was a lengthy, answer, I know, MoreofHim (but then, that was a lengthy article to wade through). But I hope it answers your question. The sheep and goats judgment described in Matthew will determine who enters the Millennium and who goes to Hell. Only the "sheep" (the surviving Tribulation believers) will enter the Millennium. Every "goat" (person who rejected Christ's offer of salvation) will die and go to Hell, to be resurrected a thousand years later and face God at the Great White Throne judgment. So, here is my answer to your earlier question, in a nutshell. The Old Testament passages that describe the conditions of the Millennium state, among other things, that people will bear children. Jesus Himself said that in the resurrection, we would not marry, but would be like the angels of Heaven--which in turn means that we would be incapable of bearing children. He also made it plain, when describing the sheep and goats judgment, that only believers would be allowed to enter the Millennium. What I said, earlier in the thread, therefore was based on the Bible says. Clearly, there will have to be mortal believers entering the Millennium if there is to be a Millennium itself. And if Jesus waits till the last second just before He comes to Rapture His Church, there will be no surviving mortal believers left. Every believer would have been changed, and therefore made incapable of having kids. Jesus would have to start eternity right then. The only way there can be a Millennium is if the Rapture is pre-Trib. There is no other way. Edited by kgreen20, Jul 12 2008, 10:29 PM.
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| worshipHim | Jul 18 2008, 04:10 PM Post #28 |
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It is really weird, because I have had several dreams of Christians being here during the great tribulation. I truly don't know anything much about tribulation. Some say it is 7 years long, but in I have read only the great turbulation...so I don't know. I think Jesus said there would be tribulation. The world has been in tribulation for thousands of years. Ask the martyrs in Asia, the Arab countries, and Myanmar (Bhurma), etc. There has always been tribulation. But several things I have seen along with other Christians is that there is no rapture as soon as things get a little bit ugly. There are ministers that teach this and yet it is not what I am being shown through fasting and prayer. They also talk about a secret rapture and I have gone back to front and front to back looking for that and still cannot find it in the Bible. I am still trying to figure out what the secret is in secret rapture when all my sinner friends know about a rapture. I don't know. Jesus kept nothing secret...that belongs to the mystery religions like Babylon or something, that secret stuff. Anyway, I do believe what Paul said that the apostasy must come FIRST in II Thes. The dead in Christ shall rise first (resurrection...and by the way there are mentioned only two) and those of who are alive and remaining will be caught up together to meet Him in the air. I have seen Christians being persecuted...horribly, without mercy. The old ways of torture will return. You know...burning in oil, burning alive, cut up, hacked up, pulled apart for the animals to eat the innards, the unborn will be ripped out of the wombs, stabbings, beheadings..., etc. . Jesus said those that endure to the end will be saved. I did hear the Holy Spirit say this ...and this was when I was watching the Christians being slaughtered, that plagues and pestilence would increase. I gathered that it was because the Christians were being overkilled. I have seen men angry because it was too late to prepare their families for persecution. They were pillars of their churches and communities who never committed adultery on their spouses and dearly loved their children. They were mad about the pre-trib rapture teaching but it was too late to do anything about it because I saw them getting processed to die. My friend, Mary, just here awhile back told me about a dream or something where these ministers were being hanged in communities because they had taught Christians would be out of here before a bad wind blows, and Christians were enduring severe circumstances. They were so angry at their circumstances for which they had not prepared they hung the ministers. In China in the 40's they had done this to their pastors. They were told they would not see any evil days befall them, they would be raptured out of here. Overnight they were overcome by the militaries. They gathered in their churches, waited on their pastors and flogged them naked through the villages. No one would preach after seeing them get severly beaten. Afraid it would happen to them. I have not seen the rapture only near the end of the age. Noah was not taken out of the world...only the unjust were killed. During the process of drowning the corrupt Noah went sailing safely along...covered. It is not unusual for the righteous to suffer with the unrighteous for awhile. The Hebrews did for a little while before the distinction came only to the Egyptians. Jeremiah suffered before Israel was taken over by Babylon and after that too. All the disciples were martyred, except John. They were the church of Philadelphia. They did not escape, they were killed. Paul was killed. The post nicene fathers never taught the rapture even though some of them were under John and Paul. Now that is weird. |
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| kgreen20 | Jul 18 2008, 04:16 PM Post #29 |
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All except John were martyred, but not one apostie was forced to suffer God's wrath. One of the biggest problems post-Tribbers tend to have is differentiating between persecution and the wrath of God. They always lump the two together. They have to, to make their case that the Church must endure the Tribulation, too. That's why they have to say, "No, the Tribulation is not God's wrath--it's meant for something else." To do that, they have to discount the evidence that the Tribulation is, indeed, just that. Rather than try to face and work through that evidence, they just shove all the wrath to the end of the Tribulation and focus on the persecution. |
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| worshipHim | Jul 19 2008, 01:19 AM Post #30 |
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In Revelation 6: 17 ...the Great day of His wrath has come... What an announcement...so there should not be any Christians any where else in the rest of the book of Revelation. There should be no conviction either, because the Holy Spirit has been removed also. Yet in Revelation 11 it talks about the two witnesses being given power (which many seem to think it is the Messianic Jews and the Gentile Christians) ...and when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. this is rather odd too...verse 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Come up here" |
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| MoreofHim | Jul 19 2008, 08:14 AM Post #31 |
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"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures." Romans 1:18 Kathy, what do you make of Romans 1:8? |
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| worshipHim | Jul 19 2008, 10:53 PM Post #32 |
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Yup, Christians are not to endure wrath from God, only unbelievers. Christians endure tribulation; because it worketh patience, and patience, experience; and experience hope: and hope maketh not ashamed... Rev. 7:9 And after this I beheld, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all the nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands... verse 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of the GREAT tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. |
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| kgreen20 | Jul 19 2008, 11:06 PM Post #33 |
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There's a huge difference between tribulation in general and the Tribulation. It is the time of God's wrath, which He will pour out on the world for rejecting Him. It is the time of Jacob's trouble, when He will finally bring His chosen people to a saving faith in Jesus the Messiah. It is the last 7 years of the Age of the Law, when God will shift His focus from the Church back to Israel and His chosen people. As He works through us now, He'll work through the Jews then. There is literally no place for the Church in the Tribulation! |
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| ZionFire | Jul 20 2008, 01:46 PM Post #34 |
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Reguardless of what my own personal doctrine happens to be or what I think in my heart or mind, I do know this, most of the American church believes God will remove them from endtime events before they experience any pain. This is why very few American Christians ever read or understand the book of Revelations,...because they dont think that end times prophecy applies to them. Well I will say this,...dont ignore the Word of God and then tell me about how much you love the Word of God. Do you love scripture,...great! Do you love true prophecy,...wonderfull! Do you love hearing the Holy Spirit in your prayer closet,...outstanding! But if you ignore the Word of the Lord in the book of Revelation and in your understanding say, "this doesnt even apply to me" then you are in error. Besides if you were an Iraqi Christian, or and Indonisian Christian, or a Christian in the Congo, you might find the final events in the book of Revelation to be more of a comfort and a promise rather than a threat. I dare you to read and listen to the extreme marterdom stories of those countries, you will find that many of them are in an extreme tribulation of there own. The Word of God is their only possesion and treasure. I think for many of us we need to begin to see the book of Revelation as a promise and not a threat. And we need to change our goal and focus from remaining safe and free from harm and danger, to a goal of bieng as effective for the Kingdom of Heaven as we can before we leave this body suit. Soon this country will become very, very hostile tward true believers in Jesus,...the Churches will have coinvenient doctrines that are not offensive to way of life of this wicked nation,...there will be persecution for you if you will not relent from believing in Jesus. So no matter how far we get in relation to the great tribulation it doesnt matter, because what we are about to go through is more than you will be able to handle without Jesus,...and that is the truth. D.P. |
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| 7SevenThunders7 | Jul 20 2008, 02:05 PM Post #35 |
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Thank you worshipHim, The words read clearly, and it leads me to feel when I read the Word of God, that I could easily be among them in the white robes. That is the feeling I get from reading the bible. That's all I'm saying to our pre-trib group of Brothers and Sisters. You have to bounce all over the bible, taking verses out of context and putting them together to create a pre-trib rapture; when if you just read the bible, it is written in the plain text what is going to happen. Certainly Christ's own words in Matthew chapter 24 describe these coming days in painful detail. So, I know you are working very hard to prove your pre-trib beliefs to us, that is exactly the point, you have to work hard to prove it, and your posts are mind scrambling in order to prove it. While on the other hand, the mid-trib post-trib camp can prove our point in the plain text of the bible. It is as simple as reading it and even a child will come to the end of Revelation or Matthew 24 and say to themsleves, "We will be here through this, Jesus has warned us, John the Revelator has showed it to us from a vision." So, while I thank you for your careful and often laborious efforts to explain the reasoning behind the pre-trib belief, until the Savior says otherwise, I feel as though I may be giving my life for my faith through the tribulation. Especially considering the fact that it will not be a hidden thing at all as stated by Christ in Matthew 24:27, "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." I am sorry to have to say that in order to believe in a pre-trib point of view, I would have to have never read the scriptures at all. I just wanted to thank you for your efforts and let you know that I totally respect my pre-trib Brothers and Sisters (my own Brother being pre-trib) and I would never want to shake you from your right to have your own beliefs on the issue. My Brother and I see it this way, He just may be raptured before the trib and I just may be here to try to bring some to the knowledge of Jesus. We have agreed to respect each others points of view on the matter and it never enters into our lives and our fellowship as Christians. This is what I hope for all of us. That we put away this matter along with all the contentions it brings and we try to respect and love one another as we all wait for the Blessed Hope. That is what we all share in common, a Faith that the Lord will come to gather His Elect from the four winds of the earth, whether dead or alive in Christ. ~7Seven |
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| ZionFire | Jul 20 2008, 02:44 PM Post #36 |
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Revelations 12:11 Why would they have to overcome Him if they werent here? Why is it important for them to not love their lives even unto death? Why are we told "who ever recieves the mark?" You mean there are people who will chose not to? Why will they chose not to even at pain of death? Why are the saints who cry out from under the alter told to wait a little while longer? What are they to wait for? Who will the Beast overcome when he wadges war against them? Why will they be here to wadge war against? Why was it necessary to write Revelations 14:12,13? We might excape some of the worst,....maybe, maybe not you cant prove it either way. But you will not excape pain if you chose to remain in Jesus. So I say "be strong in the Lord and His mighty power" Eph. 6:10 |
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| worshipHim | Jul 20 2008, 05:06 PM Post #37 |
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At one time I followed the pretrib rapture teaching. But some things just didn't seem right. For one thing Noah was still here while the wicked was being destroyed; the Hebrews suffered briefly before the plagues began to fall on the Egyptians only; and they (Hebrews) were not taken out until...the last of the plagues had been delivered to the Egyptians. The plagues on the Egyptians are mentioned in Revelation. What was neat is this...the wrath that came upon the Egyptians in plagues were the idols they worshiped. The Christians will see this too. They will stand in awe that they are not receiving the plagues just like the Hebrews saw they were not receiving them. The Egyptians were too happy to see the Hebrews go away. I wonder what the Egyptians felt like when they started getting their plagues (the Hebrews are not) and they go a crying and sacrificing to their idols and they are getting no relief, no healing from their god, and everyday is a new plague. They look at the Hebrews and thinking, "What's up with this!" The plagues will hit the worshipers of the beast, the prophet, the image; and the Christians are not suffering those things. It is amazing how history kind of repeats itself. The apostles did not understand just gettin' thru. They understood TRIBULATION; as in being flogged, hung upside down, burned in oil, stoned, heads cut off, throwed on in island of Patmos, crucified, and throwed in prison. And I thought it the greatest message in Revelation 6:9 And when He had opened the FIFTH seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the WORD of God, and for the TESTIMONY which they held. And they...cried! with a LOUD VOICE! saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not JUDGE and avenge OUR BLOOD on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that...they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their BRETHREN, that should be KILLED as THEY WERE, should be fulfilled. Y"shua isn't aplogizing that they missed the rapture! But what is said is...more martyrs like you are a coming! I reeeaaally want to so much to believe in pretrib. But this is what the word says. When it happens I am not going to be mad because persecution has come, but I will be prepared...to die because of the word of my testimony...because of the word of God. |
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| Final Call | Jul 20 2008, 05:54 PM Post #38 |
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Because we will MEET HIM IN THE AIR! All the saints just prior to his return will be awaiting Him in the atmosphere surrounding earth as He comes.(Having recieved their new bodies) Notice He said its "AFTER" the TRIBULATION....of THOSE DAYS. THEN we will be caught UP..to meet Him in the air (This is when he sends His angels to gather us together from what?..THE FOUR WINDS..from ONE end of the SKY..to the other. Plain as the nose on ones face I would say. PLUS..it matches exactly the visions I had of this great event back in 1993. |
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| kgreen20 | Jul 20 2008, 06:08 PM Post #39 |
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One problem, Final Call: if all the believers receive new bodies and meet Him in the air AFTER the Tribulation, who's going to repopulate the earth? Once we get our new bodies, we'll be incapable of having children. Sinners will not be allowed to enter the Millennium--Jesus' account of the sheep and goats judgment in Matthew makes that plain. That means the job of repopulating the earth and recreating the economy must fall to mortal believers. But if the post-Trib scenario is the correct one, there will be no mortal believers left when Jesus comes back to earth, and all the remaining unbelievers will die in short order upon His return. Without mortal believers, there will be nothing for Jesus to do but start eternity immediately--no Millennium. Edited by kgreen20, Jul 20 2008, 06:10 PM.
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| Final Call | Jul 20 2008, 06:43 PM Post #40 |
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Very good question Kathy. If you recall Jesus said that "THOSE DAYS" would be cut SHORT...why?...or NO FLESH would be saved. In other words he will retain a REMNANT of FLESH upon the earth destined to survive. No doubt these ones will NOT be a part of the beast system..most likley hidden away in some remote place. NOT saints..but not mark takers..just ordinary people whom God preserves. They could be some tribe somewhere..or scattered groups who for some reason or other were unreachable or unknown about by the beast. In any case Jesus made it clear that SOME flesh would be saved..there will be mortals upon the earth. During the thousand years they will grow in number...and they will have to give tribute once a year at the temple. At the end of a thousand years of peace and plenty and no more death (Except by accident) the population will be massive..and THEN..Satan gets released one final time to test and sift those born during the millenium. Up until then these ones had no choice..but now they WILL have a choice as Satan sets forth to decieve the nations one last time. Yes...we will be reigning WITH Christ..and NOW you know just who we will be reigning over!...the repopulated nations. |
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