Two Raptures/Rev. Chronology

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Two Raptures/Rev. Chronology
Topic Started: Jun 17 2008, 10:37 AM (477 Views)
Deleted User	Jun 17 2008, 10:37 AM Post #1
Deleted User	This is a letter in 5 Doves site, and it has some pertinent thoughts on the timing of the Wrath, the Bride's departure, Tribulation believers. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dear Jimmy, As you mentioned being interested in studies about Revelation’s chronology, I think you would love to read Daniel Rydstedt’s ebooks called “Be The Bride”, especially volumes 1 and 3. They aren’t expensive (about US$ 13.00 each), check the author’s website at http://www.rapturebride.info . See the section called “Other Books by Daniel”. I’m sure you’ll enjoy reading these ebooks as much as I did. I bought them some months ago and I consider that my money was very well spent, I feel I was really blessed and enlightened by those books. Many things that seemed obscure made a lot of sense. Another website that has excellent material is Marilyn Agee’s “Prophecy Corner”, at http://www.prophecycorner.com/agee/ . Check her articles at http://www.prophecycorner.com/agee/fileindex.html . I was very much blessed by reading her wonderful articles too. Don’t bother about wrong estimates about the first rapture date (we all have wrong guesses! and besides Marilyn never claimed to be a prophet), the important thing is the essence of the articles, which all seem to be theologically correct and with wonderful insights for us. She has also authored very interesting books, check http://www.prophecycorner.com/agee/books.html Both of these authors understand that (besides the rapture of the Two Witnesses) there are going to be TWO raptures, and not only ONE as many Christians think. The first rapture is pretrib, and it seems that there will be a period of time (maybe a few months) between the first rapture and the beginning of the tribulation. Before the first rapture (how long, the Bible doesn’t reveal), there will be the Resurrection of the saints. I personally believe (this is only my humble opinion) that the Resurrection of the saints takes place minutes (or hours at the most) before the Rapture (Glory to God!!!). And a few months later, the treaty between Israel and the false messiah (first beast, Antichrist) is signed. The second rapture (actually the third, because we are not counting here the rapture of the Two Witnesses) happens (in my opinion) right before the pouring of God’s wrath, including all the saints who were left behind (foolish virgins that weren’t ready) at the time of the first rapture plus all those who believed and trusted in Christ between the first rapture and the pouring of God’s wrath. The pouring of God’s wrath seems to happen about 7 months before the Second Advent. So the First Rapture seems to occur on Pentecost (2009? Full moon after Pentecost in 2008?) and the Second Rapture seems to occur on the Feast of Trumpets (Tishri 1), the Day of the Lord, probably in September 14th, 2015 (check “Possible dates of End Time Events” at Marilyn Agee’s home page). Many solar and lunar eclipses line up precisely with Jewish feast days in 2015, as can be seen at http://66.155.114.80/video/Dsl/5904-D.wmv The first Rapture is like the days of Noah. Everything seemed to be peaceful and normal, and people entered the ark in pairs (reference to a wedding). The second Rapture is like the days of Lot. Just before the fire and brimstone falling from the sky (no wedding mentioned, literally pre-wrath). Marilyn Agge says: “Two differences stand out when you examine the days of Noah and Lot in Matthew 24:37-42 and Luke 17:26-37. Marriage is mentioned in the days of Noah but not in the days of Lot. No fire falls in the days of Noah, but it falls that same day in the days of Lot. These types represent two different Raptures, one Pre-Trib and the other Pre-Wrath. Also, since marriage is mentioned in the days of Noah, it seems that the Bride of Christ will be taken to Heaven first, then the rest of the Body of Christ will be caught up just before the Wrath of God is poured out at the end of the shortened Tribulation.” I strongly recommend that you read the article “Two Raptures”, by Marilyn Agee at http://www.prophecycorner.com/agee/2rapt.html I know that there are many Christians who don’t agree with the two rapture (or rapture in two phases) theory because they think it contradicts the salvation by Grace only. I don’t agree with that. Of course salvation is by Grace, and every believer will be saved no matter when. But being raptured first and escaping the days of the tribulation is not a matter of Grace, but a matter of Rewards. If every Christian were to the Raptured at the same time, our Lord wouln’t have told us (Luke 21:36) to “watch and pray always so that we may be accounted WORTHY to escape all these things that shall come to pass and stand before the Son of man”. Our salvation doesn’t depend on us being worthy, but on our faith only. But our being raptured before the tribulation, as the wise virgins, depends on our preparedness when our Lord (the Bridegroom) comes. Both Daniel Rydstedt (at www.rapturebride.info) and Marilyn Agge (at www.prophecycorner.com/agee) explain that in detail. We should confess all our sins now and DO what our Lord has commanded us to do, showing the fruit of the Spirit in our practical lives. Well, if we don’t meet in the air this very week (Glory to the Lord!), then I think the Rapture will probably take place next Pentecost, May 31st, 2009 (or June 1st for Monday Pentecost defenders). I believe Pentecost has to be on a Sunday because I understand the counting of the 50 days to be inclusive reckoning (Sunday, the morrow after the Saturday coming after the first day of Unleavened Bread, is counted as Day # 1, not Day Zero). Please pardon me if there are any mistakes or unnatural sentences in my English (my mother tongue is Portuguese, I’ve studied English as a foreign language in an English course in my country). This is also my first post here. Thanks everyone for the wonderful contributions to this website, I have been blessed by many of you. I don’t care if we have different understandings in prophetic interpretation and I’m always willing to learn. What I like most about this website is the faith, love and respect that everyone seems to show in their posts, regardless of differences in opinion. God bless you all. Kindest regards, Eliane (from Brazil)
Deleted User


Rog	Jun 18 2008, 12:34 AM Post #2
Advanced Member Posts: 337 Group: Members Member #174 Joined: May 12, 2006	Summer-girl Jun 17 2008, 10:37 AM Both of these authors understand that (besides the rapture of the Two Witnesses) there are going to be TWO raptures, and not only ONE as many Christians think. The first rapture is pretrib, and it seems that there will be a period of time (maybe a few months) between the first rapture and the beginning of the tribulation. Before the first rapture (how long, the Bible doesn’t reveal), there will be the Resurrection of the saints. I personally believe (this is only my humble opinion) that the Resurrection of the saints takes place minutes (or hours at the most) before the Rapture (Glory to God!!!). And a few months later, the treaty between Israel and the false messiah (first beast, Antichrist) is signed. The second rapture (actually the third, because we are not counting here the rapture of the Two Witnesses) happens (in my opinion) right before the pouring of God’s wrath, including all the saints who were left behind (foolish virgins that weren’t ready) at the time of the first rapture plus all those who believed and trusted in Christ between the first rapture and the pouring of God’s wrath. The pouring of God’s wrath seems to happen about 7 months before the Second Advent. I do believe there will be two raptures, one after the destruction of Babylon and a few months before the signing of the treaty. and the other right before Gods wrath, ( the bowl/vial judgments) But it is what we will go through before the first rapture happens. Rev 6:12-14 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. Rev 7:9-17 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen." Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. "They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; "for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."



Israeli	Jun 20 2008, 12:45 AM Post #3
Advanced Member Posts: 790 Group: Advanced Members Member #1,064 Joined: April 29, 2007	"Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, 'Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?' And I said to him, 'Sir, you know.' So he said to me, 'These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple...' " This scripture has always bothered me. It says they "come out" of the great tribulation. To come out of it, they had to be IN it. Edited by Israeli, Jun 20 2008, 12:47 AM.



Issachar	Jun 23 2008, 12:09 PM Post #4
Advanced Member Posts: 218 Group: Members Member #990 Joined: April 16, 2007	Israeli Jun 20 2008, 12:45 AM "Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, 'Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?' And I said to him, 'Sir, you know.' So he said to me, 'These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple...' " This scripture has always bothered me. It says they "come out" of the great tribulation. To come out of it, they had to be IN it. Yes, the church/Christian will go through the Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is the last 3 ½ years if it. Then comes the Wrath of God to punish the wicked/unsaved for what they did the righteous. Rev.20:4-6. There is only one resurrection (and rapture) of the righteous and that comes at the end of the Tribulation. If there is ONLY ONE resurrection of the righteous and that is at the end of the Trib. There could be no pre-trib. Rapture. Because the ones who died during the Trib. (for not taking the mark of the Beast) Could not go to be with God/resurrected. If there was a pre-trib rapture and only one resurrection)-- What about the children born during the Trib ,they have no sin. God would not leave them in the grave never to be resurrected.



Shershalom	Jun 23 2008, 03:07 PM Post #5
Advanced Member Posts: 612 Group: Advanced Members Member #810 Joined: March 20, 2007	Ok, just a few questions to all those who are not Pre-Trib. 1. If church/christians go through tribulation, what is their purpose in the Tribulation? Martyrdom? How does the church's presence in the Tribulation harmonize with the 144,000 of the 12 tribes of Israel who belong to Jesus and keep the commandments of God? Or with the Two Witnesses? 2. If this resurrection, rapture is only at the end of the tribulation, how do we avoid the wrath of God? I Thess 5:9 Is the wrath of God against man the purpose of the Great Tribulation? Or did I miss something? 2. If at the End of the tribulation, one resurrection/rapture, are we caught up to be in the LORD in the air, (I Thess 4:15-18) or do we always remain on the earth? 3. If only one resurrection, why is it called the first? If it is the first resurrection, wouldn't that mean there is a 2nd resurrection? 4. Obviously then WATCHING and being READY now for the LORD would be a mute point since we first get to go through the Great Tribulation?
	SherShalom "Blessed is HE that comes in the NAME of the LORD." MATTHEW 23:39


Issachar	Jun 23 2008, 04:23 PM Post #6
Advanced Member Posts: 218 Group: Members Member #990 Joined: April 16, 2007	Q&A # 1--- The trib is to prefect the saints and judge the nations/people for their worship of other gods. If you don’t worship the true God of creation, you are worshiping another god. There is no middle ground. #2---The Wrath of God is after the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is the last 3 1/2 yrs. That is to punish the wicked for what they did to Gods people. #2--- No, we will go to meet Jesus in the air and will forever be with him at the end of the Trib.. #3—The Second resurrection is for the Wicked/unrighteous dead. #4---We have to always be ready to meet him. We might die tomorrow or the neat breath might not come to us. That is why the Pre-Trib people in general will not be ready for the Tribulation that is now almost upon us. Will they be looking for Jesus to take them out but he won’t be coming to do that, but He will provide for us. Will they recognize the Tribulation when they see it? Or will they be in the Tribulation and not know it because they are looking for the Deliverer to take them out. There is no place in History of the Bible where God took them out. They always faced their enemy. Every time Gods people turn away from Him the enemy shows up and they turn back to God. We/people as o whole have turned away from God. They worship a false god. Moses took Israel out of Egypt and they spent 40yrs in the wilderness then they faced their enemies. The wilderness perfected them, the Tribulation will perfect us and make us without spot and wrinkle. A people without spot and wrinkle is what God is coming for. Edited by Issachar, Jun 23 2008, 04:24 PM.



Shershalom	Jun 23 2008, 04:55 PM Post #7
Advanced Member Posts: 612 Group: Advanced Members Member #810 Joined: March 20, 2007	Have no fear, Issachar, I don't think pre-tribbers are totally blind to the signs of the times. We pre-tribbers are not with our heads in the sands like ostriches, you know. Remember, we of the pre-trib persuasion are still saved and sancified by what Messiah did for us on the T at Calvary. So for those pre-tribbers (and all other believers) who have already departed this earth by death, what will perfect them then to be counted worthy for rapture/resurrection since they don't get to share in this dubious honor of going into the Great Tribulation? As to the nation of Israel in the wilderness, um, don't want to burst your bubble on them being perfected through the wilderness --- didn't all those of adult age die in the wilderness because of their rebellion, leaving after 40 years sojournings the younger generation (reaching mature age) to enter into the Land? Questions. I'm just full of em, ain't I?
	SherShalom "Blessed is HE that comes in the NAME of the LORD." MATTHEW 23:39


Issachar	Jun 23 2008, 06:31 PM Post #8
Advanced Member Posts: 218 Group: Members Member #990 Joined: April 16, 2007	Shershalom Jun 23 2008, 04:55 PM As to the nation of Israel in the wilderness, um, don't want to burst your bubble on them being perfected through the wilderness --- didn't all those of adult age die in the wilderness because of their rebellion, leaving after 40 years sojournings the younger generation (reaching mature age) to enter into the Land? Questions. I'm just full of em, ain't I? That’s the same thing that will happen during the Trib. The so call Christian people will fall away and the true believer will emerge during that wilderness period.. There are numerous Christians that will take the Mark. I taught pre-trib for many years and changed my position in the matter. One of the verses that couldn’t be explained away was Rev. 20:4-6. The FIRST RESURRECTION. You see, I know both sides of the discussion. The turning point was--- Rev.20 among many others scriptures and God gave me a vision of the Revelation and where I would be in it and there was no way out of it. It took me months to get used to the Idea (if one ever does. the unknown is the problem ) but God will provide. Even knowing that I don’t like to ponder on it at times. Believe me it was a shock to my head. Some will say that’s just you. No, that is you also. All you have to do is stick around a short time longer and you will see it. The great falling away will come at the mid-point of the Trib.



Shershalom	Jun 23 2008, 07:53 PM Post #9
Advanced Member Posts: 612 Group: Advanced Members Member #810 Joined: March 20, 2007	Repeat question, since I am interested in a good answer to this: So for those pre-tribbers (and all other believers) who have already departed this earth by death, what will perfect them then to be counted worthy for rapture/resurrection since they don't get to share in this dubious honor of going into the Great Tribulation? Have you a scripture for this statement: "The great falling away will come at the mid-point of the Trib." I am interested in knowing how this was determined from scripture. I am real big on having scripture for answers, if you remember. RE: Your vision of the Tribulation, was this just a personal vision or a more general one? Can you share it here? MichaelinHisService also had a vision of Revelation. Have you two compared visions yet? Any clues as to WHY the LORD has given you a vision of Revelation? I agree ... there are a lot of so-called "Christians". Many people think because of family association or membership with a group and/or building (church) is what makes a person a "christian". (I use the term BELIEVER of the BIBLICAL Kind to make a distinction between the so-called and true faith in Messiah.) Sad to say, there will be many left behind and who take the mark, not knowing the WORD or knowing the LORD. My mind is meandering on this ... I sometimes wonder though if not BOTH pre-trib rapture is true, and for some of the true believers to remain behind as well for God's purposes in the GT. I've heard some teach from I Corinthians 15:20-28, that there is a definite ORDER, and that each person will come in his own order. Sometimes I wonder if the LORD is not picking and choosing some to remain behind, and giving them revelation about Revelation. (Punny people, ain't I?) Thanks for your answers, Issachar - food for thought, yes, but so far this little old ostrich is standing and looking heavenward, waiting and watching those clouds daily! Maranatha!
	SherShalom "Blessed is HE that comes in the NAME of the LORD." MATTHEW 23:39


Issachar	Jun 23 2008, 09:22 PM Post #10
Advanced Member Posts: 218 Group: Members Member #990 Joined: April 16, 2007	Shershalom;; A person that has already departed has either made it to Heaven or -=-=-. As a tree falls so shall it lay. We are just destined for this time period. Falling away---When the mark of Beast is required is the time of the great falling away. People will try to preserve their life but in taking the Mark they will loose it. There were 10 tribes of Israel who worshiped other gods. That gives you a comparison on the percentage of people who will not make to Heaven. The time ahs not come yet that we are hated of all men for His name sake. There is a falling away taking place now but nothing like what will take place. Judas, the son of perdition was well hidden in Jesus’ ministry. He did the miracles and everything all the other disciples did and was not detected until he hanged himself. When Jesus said there was one among them that would betray Him, they all said, is it I Lord. That’s how well hidden Judas was. Judas fell away when he hanged himself. Then everyone knew who the son of perdition was. That was in the 3 ½ year period of Jesus’ ministry. In mid-trib and the time the Mark will be introduced there will be that great falling away and the son of perdition will be known to all. The separation of the true believer and the unrighteous will be known. In 2nd. Thes.2: 3-11---That’s the falling away AND the son of perdition is revealed. The Judas type in not letting himself be revealed until then. When the unrighteous fall away they will be exposed just like Judas was in his time. Judas is the example. That falling away is also to expose the true believer of Christ. That scripture has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit disappearing. That takes place to reveal the son of perdition because he is so well hidden. Shershalom,, you seem to be a level headed person . I don’t know why I said that but thought I would through it in.



dinosaur	Jun 23 2008, 11:26 PM Post #11
Advanced Member Posts: 780 Group: Advanced Members Member #93 Joined: January 3, 2006	Issachar Jun 23 2008, 09:22 PM Falling away---When the mark of Beast is required is the time of the great falling away. People will try to preserve their life but in taking the Mark they will loose it. There were 10 tribes of Israel who worshiped other gods. That gives you a comparison on the percentage of people who will not make to Heaven. The time ahs not come yet that we are hated of all men for His name sake. There is a falling away taking place now but nothing like what will take place. Periodic surges of believers have fallen away throughout history when severe persecution caused tribulations in their lives. Presently various ministries teach that the falling away has already occurred and/or is still occurring. But the coming Final Fall Out will be when every living human must make a critical choice: either pass through the beast's gate and be branded with his mark in order to serve and survive in the New World Order, or turn away from the beast's gate and consequently be denied food, work and shelter, and then be hunted down for extermination. The lukewarm and deceived believers will take the mark because they will rationalize God understands why this is only a temporary measure, and He will forgive them. But then gross spiritual darkness will possess their souls as they are bound to the beast, hopelessly lost, to be separated forever from their Holy Creator.



Rog	Jun 24 2008, 07:49 AM Post #12
Advanced Member Posts: 337 Group: Members Member #174 Joined: May 12, 2006	It is a two fold action: 1. Take the mark of the beast 2. Worship the image of the beast (He will have his own tv show)



dinosaur	Jun 24 2008, 08:30 AM Post #13
Advanced Member Posts: 780 Group: Advanced Members Member #93 Joined: January 3, 2006	Rog Jun 24 2008, 07:49 AM It is a two fold action: 1. Take the mark of the beast 2. Worship the image of the beast (He will have his own tv show) Expect to see a daily diary of televised documentaries about his philosophies, teachings, political deeds, humanitarian accomplishments, and future plans for the world. Satellite coverage will be 24/7 (using necessary editing to replace undesireable live footage with archived philosophies, teachings, political deeds, blah, blah, blah). Mass merchandizing of his image will be ubiquitous: radio broadcasts, books, songs, toys, designer clothing, vehicles, personal hygiene products, blah, blah, blah). People will want to emulate and know everything about their leader, but he will reveal only what he wants them to know for his gain and their loss. Edited by dinosaur, Jun 24 2008, 08:32 AM.



Shershalom	Jun 24 2008, 10:13 AM Post #14
Advanced Member Posts: 612 Group: Advanced Members Member #810 Joined: March 20, 2007	Issachar / Dinosaur -Thank you for your views on the tribulation and those believers who will be therein. Always interesting to dialogue on differing takes on the End Times. Still, I remain one who holds to a position of the Harpazo / Great Snatching Away by Jesus as to occur prior to the Great Tribulation period. I found an excellent article that I am sharing here. I so appreciate Mr. Strandberg's usage of the WORD of GOD to make the defense for a pre-trib position. Enjoy. Shalom in Messiah, Sherry Defending The Pre-trib Rapture by Todd Strandberg www.raptureready.com/rr-pre-trib-rapture.html After reading countless messages and articles that attack the pre-trib rapture, I've noticed a certain number of arguments that are repeatedly sent to me. Instead of trying to answer every individual e-mail I receive, I thought it would be a good idea to create a web page that addresses the most commonly mentioned points of debate. This way, I can avoid repeating myself so many times; thereby, maintain my sanity. Nowhere in the Bible, can you find the word "rapture" It amazes me that some folks write to me, questioning the validity of the rapture, simply because the word "rapture" doesn't appear in the Bible. With 1 Thes 4:16-18 giving us such a clear description of the rapture, you would have to conclude that some people are just playing games with the Word of God. I could change the name of my site to "Catching Up Ready" to satisfy these folks, but I hardly think that would improve things. Their logic fails because there are a huge number of words that don't appear in the Bible, including the word "Bible." Because God's Word was originally written in Hebrew and Greek, one could truthfully say that no English words are in the Bible. Let's take a look at 1 Thes 4:16-18 in the original Greek: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4:16 oti autos o kurios en keleusmati en fwnh arcaggelou kai en salpiggi qeou katabhsetai ap ouranou kai oi nekroi en cristw anasthsontai prwton 4:17 epeita hmeis oi zwntes oi perileipomenoi ama sun autois arpaghsomeqa en nefelais eis apanthsin tou kuriou eis aera kai outws pantote sun kuriw esomeqa 4:18 wste parakaleite allhlous en tois logois toutois ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't see the dead in Christ rising, Jesus descending from heaven, and us meeting Him in the air. So the cynics are right: the word "rapture" is nowhere to be found. All I see is gobbledygook. For the record, the word "rapture" comes from the Latin word "rapturo," which in turn was a translation of the Greek verb "caught up" found in 1 Thes 4:17. You can call it the pre-trib rapture, the pre-trib rapturo, or the pre-trib caught up--it's all the same thing. Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say that the Church will be raptured before the tribulation. Pre-trib opponents should have thought this one through because any pre-tribulationist has the same right to say, "Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say the Church will go through the tribulation." Jesus did say, "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44). The only time frame I can think of when we believers would not be expecting Jesus to return would have to be before the tribulation. The Margaret MacDonald Origin One of the most widely circulated attacks against the pre-trib rapture is the notion that a girl named Margaret MacDonald started this theological view back in 1830. The claim is typically made that MacDonald received a demonic vision, passed it on to John Darby, who in turn popularized it. Disproving this assertion proves rather easy. Pre-trib scholars have discovered a host of rapture writings that predate Margaret MacDonald. Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." One post-trib author offered a reward to anyone who could find a quote that predated MacDonald. He had to quickly cough up the money when someone identified a scholar who wrote about the pre-trib rapture several years before MacDonald. As of late, dozens of examples have been found, and the literary surface has hardly been scratched. With the revealing of all these pre-MacDonald writings, you would think that this argument has been debunked. Unfortunately, this is not the case. We seem to be involved in a tug-of-war with the truth. Apparently, due to their lack of research, pre-trib opponents continue to pump out publications that cite MacDonald as the originator of the pre-trib rapture. The Last Trumpet Argument Because Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:52 and 1 Thes 4:16, said believers would be raptured at the sounding of a trump, many folks have tried to make it appear that the rapture trumps are the same trumpets found in Revelation 11:15-18, Joel 2:1, and Mat 24:31--which all occur during the tribulation. When you have trumpets commonly used throughout the Bible, I think it's foolish to just assume any two of the 62 trumps or trumpets are prophetically related. To be able to make the claim that the tribulation trumpet soundings are the same as the rapture trumps, you would need a direct statement saying this is the case. In the movies Ben-Hur and The Wizard of Oz, I recall hearing the sounding of trumpets. Are both these trumpets somehow prophetically related? If your friend John said he went to his favorite restaurant last night, and another friend Larry said he also went to his favorite restaurant last night, is it logical for you to assume they both went to the same restaurant? Obviously not, because even though John and Larry went to their favorite restaurants, they may have had two different eating establishments in mind. The same logic should apply with the word trumpet. With such a blind devotion to this one similarity, I have to wonder if these last-tumpeters are able to distinguish the difference between Tylenol and Exlax. They're both over-the-counter drugs, they come in pill form, and they can also be found in a medicine cabinet. Of course, one will make your headache disappear and the other will make your toilet paper disappear. Pre-wrath proponents say that the Seventh Trumpet blown in Rev 11:15-18 is the same last trump Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 15:52. However, they fail to take into account the fact that John wrote Revelation 40 years after Paul wrote his first epistle to the Corinthians. How could Paul refer to something that was not yet revealed? Post-tribbers use a trumpet sounding in Joel 2:1 as evidence for a post-trib rapture on the Day of the Lord. I have three problems with Joel 2:1: 1. Joel clearly says that the purpose for blowing the trumpet is to "sound an alarm." 2. According to 1 Cor 15:52, the rapture is something that occurs in the twinkling of an eye. Joel 2:1 says the Day of the Lord is nigh at hand. In order for Joel's trumpet to be the same one in 1 Cor. there would have to be a time delay between the sounding of the trumpet and the rapture of the Church. 3. The fact that there is another trumpet being sounded in Joel 2:15 further clouds the possibility that these trumpets could have anything to do with the rapture. When Paul was writing to the Corinthians, he specifically said "the" last trump. During the Feast of Trumpets, the Jews blow short trumpet blasts. They end the feast with a long blast from what is called the last trump, which is blown the longest. Judaism has traditionally connected this last trump with the resurrection of the dead. Paul also made the connection. For many Christians, the association between the rapture and the Feast of Trumpets is so strong, they look for the rapture to someday occur on this feast. The Day of the Lord Argument A number people have attempted to refute the pre-trib rapture by trying to associate the "Day of the Lord" with a catching-up of believers at the end of the tribulation. They base their rapture views solely on the idea that the "Day of the Lord" and the rapture are either synonymous or somehow linked together. The Achilles heel of their argument has to be the notion that the "Day of the Lord" and various other "days" of an end-time context refers to a 24 hour period that occurs at or near the end of the tribulation. Probably the most commonly cited verse is 1 Thessalonians 5:2 where Paul tells us the "Day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night." I've read countless articles that describe the "Day of the Lord" as Christ's advent at Armageddon. These articles go on to say that, because Paul also tells us the Lord will come "as a thief," we have a direct link to the same description that is applied to noted rapture verses. It's rather obvious that those trying to rely on the "Day of the Lord" never bothered to validate the meaning of this particular day. I've checked a number of commentaries on the "Day of the Lord" and many of them define this as being an all-encompassing period that begins with the Great Tribulation. Let's examine some verses that clearly indicate that the term "day" is used to represent a broader time period. II Peter 3:10-13 The "Day of the Lord" Peter spoke of in second Peter, cannot be a one day event because it mentions the destruction of the earth by fire and its renovation. Rev 21:11 tells us the earth will not be renewed until after Christ's 1000 year reign. Joel 2:11-20 The "Day of the Lord" Joel describes, includes the defeat of the northern army. Ezk. 38 and 39 is parallel passage. Most scholars would time the destruction of the Gog army as occurring before in the first half of the tribulation. John 12:48 In the book of John, Jesus uses the term "last day" to indicate when the lost would be judged. Rev 20 makes it clear that the unsaved will not be judged until after the millennium--yet another 1000 year gap. Hebrews 10:25 One of the best indications that most of the various �day� references are citing a general time period can be found in Hebrews 10:25: "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." Surely, Paul would not be warning us to watch for a day that would be coming at the end of the tribulation. That type of logic would be like warning children, as they cross the road, to watch out for tail lights. The First Resurrection I've heard some folks say, "There cannot be a pre-trib rapture because to have one would require a second resurrection at Christ's return to earth." This conclusion is drawn from Revelation 20: "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Rev 20:5-6). One pre-trib writer, explaining this passage, said, "The first did not mean first in time, but rather first in kind." The first resurrection was for God's people the second will be for the unsaved. A quick way to shoot down the notion that the first resurrection is tied to a specific date, as opposed to a more general time frame, is to take note of the tribulation rapture of the two witnesses and the 144,000 Jewish evangelists. At the mid-point of the tribulation, the two witnesses are killed by the Antichrist, resurrected by God, and then caught up into heaven (Rev 11:3-12). Revelation chapter 7 describes the sealing of the 144,000 Jewish evangelists just before the Beast issues his mark. Sometime during the latter half of the tribulation, Revelation chapter 14 indicates they will be "redeemed from the earth," standing before the throne of God. Confusion over Confusion: 2 Thes 2:1-6 Because Paul, in 2 Thessalonians, said the Antichrist would be revealed before the Day of the Christ, post and pre-wrath adherents frequently try to cite this passage as one that refutes the pre-trib rapture. To quell the Thessalonian's misunderstanding that they had somehow entered the tribulation, Paul told them the Antichrist must first be revealed. By telling them they had no reason to panic, Paul is clearly disputing the idea that the Thessalonians could someday find themselves facing the tribulation hour. I'm constantly being irked by Post-trib and pre-wrath folks' consistent, or better yet deliberate, failure to accept the simple fact that the pre-trib doctrine calls for a rapture and a second coming. Because they only glean the prophetic word for one event--the second coming--they're unable to recognize pre-trib rapture passages. Of course, when you fuse the two advents together, you end up with verses that appear to contradict each other: 1 Thessalonians 5:9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," and Revelation 13:7, "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." Reverse Logic Stuck In Reverse Many people are against the pre-trib rapture simply because they see it as being the dominant view on the timing of Christ's return for the Church. The anti-pretribulationists often think they are the last remaining true believers. I'm simply dumbfounded over why some people choose rebellion against the majority view as their guide for finding truth. The measurement of popularity alone is a terrible way to determine something's validity. It is particularly strange when people solely rely on the contrarian view to judge truth from fiction. I utilize contrarian views all the time to help determine what is truthful; however, it would be a terrible mistake on my part if I made Contrarianism the core foundation of any of my beliefs. If you're using reverse logic, you need to support your conclusions. The vast majority of the population would agree that apples grow on apple trees and cherries grow on cheery trees. The pure novelty of the opposite being true does not in any way help make it so. Unless you see farmers gluing apples onto cherry trees or picking cherries from apple trees, you have no basis to think that these two fruits do not grow on anything but the trees that share the same name. Some people are clearly more in love with the idea of a conspiracy than they are the truth. Every time an airplane crashes to the earth there's someone who will proclaim it was caused by anything from an act of terrorism to a bizarre government plot. It's just not exciting enough to say it was a mechanical problem that led to the crash. The idea that the pre-trib rapture is the dominant view is not correct in the first place. Most evangelicals would say they look for a pre-trib rapture, but if you include all Christians, pretribulationists would rank third behind post-trib and preterist adherents. Persecute Me Please You would think the desire to go through the tribulation would be as popular as the desire to jump into a pit filled with vipers and broken glass. As illogical as it may seem, there appears to be a large number of Christians that fully expect to get roughed up before Christ returns. Many Christians argue strongly for the right to suffer persecution at the hands of the Antichrist and the one world government. These tribulation saint wannabees constantly harp, "Because Jesus and His disciples suffered persecution, we should expect no better." It's been my experience that people with the weakest faith are generally the ones that talk the boldest. When the slightest difficulty comes their way, they cry to high heaven. I hate to be the bearer of good news, but the word of God clearly states that believers will escape the tribulation bloodbath. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes 5:9). "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10). In one regard, people who think the Church will go through the tribulation are somewhat correct. I believe there will be a huge number of "carnal Christians" that will find themselves left behind. By having the rapture before the tribulation, all those who find themselves facing the wrath of God will be without an excuse. No Secret Rapture "There is no secret rapture" is the beginning declaration of a large percentage of messages that attack the rapture. Rarely is this statement backed by supporting scriptural evidence. A few people will cite Rev 1:17, "every eye shall see him," as proof that the rapture will not be a secret event. Of course, I would immediately note that "every eye shall see him" is the second coming. I have a hard time understanding how these folks could think pretribulationists preach a secret rapture. We seem to be doing our very best to popularize the rapture before it takes place. I doubt that, afterwards, with all the car wrecks, plane crashes, and missing persons reports, the rapture will remain a secret occurrence. The only people I know who are attempting to keep the pre-trib rapture a secret are its critics. Pre-wrath and post-trib folks have the national media and the liberal churches as their allies in their ongoing effort to silence all knowledge of the "blessed hope." No Imminency Because an imminent or any moment rapture is one of the major teachings of pre-tribulationists, opponents of this view attempt to dismantle the imminency of the rapture. Although Jesus said, "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come" (Mat 24:42), advocates for knowing the "day" will claim this only applies to the unsaved. I hear arguments like, "Surely a loving father would tell his own children when he's coming for them." To try to get around "no man know the hour," a popular scripture often cited is: "But yea brethren, are not in darkness that that day should overtake you as a thief" (1 Thes 5:4). Despite all their monkeying with scripture, pre-trib detractors just cannot escape Jesus' restriction against knowing the timing of the rapture. In fact, our Lord was so restrictive about the rapture, He said its occurrence would come as a total surprise. "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44). Now as far as the second coming goes, the Bible couldn't be plainer. It clearly states that Jesus will return 1260 days from the moment the Antichrist sits in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God. Because there exists both a known and an unknown date, many scholars have logically concluded that there must be two different events occurring--the rapture and the second coming. The Restrainer In 2 Thessalonians the Apostle Paul speaks of a "he" that will restrain the advent of the Antichrist. The restrainer's removal is required before the Antichrist can be revealed. 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8, "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming." A debate has erupted over the identity of the Restrainer because if this "he" is the Holy Ghost, the only real explanation for his removal would be the rapture of the Church, which is indwelled by him. The strongest argument offered against the Holy Spirit being the Restrainer is the belief that if God's Spirit was ever removed from the earth, no one could then be saved. The removal of the Holy Ghost does not have to be an all or nothing proposition. I believe his being "taken out of the way" will only be a degree of removal. Before the Church Age, people were able to find salvation, which obviously meant the Holy Spirit was at work on earth. When the outpouring of the Holy Ghost occurred at Pentecost, we didn't have a second Holy Spirit come to earth. His removal at the rapture will only be a reversal or ending of the Pentecostal outpouring. Replacementism Because Revelation places a strong emphasis on Israel during the tribulation, and not on the church, most post-tribulationists have adopted a replacement theology view in order to maintain the focus on them. Replacementism is the view that Israel, having failed God, has been replaced by the Church. The Church is now seen as spiritual Israel and spiritual Jerusalem. This teaching claims that all the promises and blessings, in fact Israel's entire inheritance, now belongs to the Church. However, all is not lost for Israel; it gets to keep all the curses. Dispensational theology, taught by nearly all pre-tribulationists, teaches that God has separate strategies for dealing with the Church and the Jews. When you consider the change in focus, during the tribulation, from the Church to Israel, the pre-trib rapture provides a good explanation for this transfer of attention. To say that Israel is no longer God's chosen people is really playing with fire because the Antichrist will likely be saying the same thing when he tries to destroy the Jews during the tribulation. I look for people that hold to replacementism to be in the cheering section when the Beast goes on his Jew-killing campaign. "The Lord will not reject his people; he will never forsake his inheritance" (Psalm 94:14). "This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar - the Lord Almighty is his name: 'Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,' declares the Lord, 'will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me'" (Jeremiah 31:35-36).
	SherShalom "Blessed is HE that comes in the NAME of the LORD." MATTHEW 23:39


Issachar	Jun 24 2008, 11:41 AM Post #15
Advanced Member Posts: 218 Group: Members Member #990 Joined: April 16, 2007	The Tribulation and You. I got this back in 8-3-2005 but didn’t post it, but now is the time. It seems as we receive prophecies too far in advance we tend to pass them off as false and write them off. We seem to forget that prophecies will come to pass in Gods time, not ours, but they will come to pass. Since we are so close to the Tribulation it is time to post it. I was on a computer and it was the mid-tribulation time period. I saw millions of people being destroyed and all sorts of catastrophes happing all over the world. I saw the Beast System in full swing, it’s leaders and commanders. I had seen enough so I wanted to close the screen out. I kept hitting the X with the mouse (15-20 times in rapid secession) but every time I would hit the X the screen would pop back up again. I was getting frustrated because I couldn’t exit the page, then a voice said, Your Not Getting Out.. I had to set there and watch the activities of the Tribulation Times. Needless to say I was totally disappointed and my heart sank because I thought I would escape the Tribulation Period. Regardless of what you have been taught or think, the Christian/Church will go through the 7 yr. Tribulation Period. That’s all I will go into for now.



Shershalom	Jun 24 2008, 12:06 PM Post #16
Advanced Member Posts: 612 Group: Advanced Members Member #810 Joined: March 20, 2007	Issachar, This is one of my points exactly. Based upon what you just wrote, it seems you are placing more faith and trust in this vision/dream as your reality, than in the written word of God. "We walk by FAITH, not by sight." II Cor. 5:7 Did you test this vision? Did you test this 'voice' you heard? I John 4:1-6 What was your assurance that this came from the LORD and not from the enemy?
	SherShalom "Blessed is HE that comes in the NAME of the LORD." MATTHEW 23:39


Issachar	Jun 24 2008, 12:16 PM Post #17
Advanced Member Posts: 218 Group: Members Member #990 Joined: April 16, 2007	And my point is that the Bible speaks of the Post-trib rapture. The vision was just a conformation so I would see things Gods way and not the traditions of man.



dinosaur	Jun 24 2008, 01:06 PM Post #18
Advanced Member Posts: 780 Group: Advanced Members Member #93 Joined: January 3, 2006	Issachar Jun 24 2008, 11:41 AM I was on a computer and it was the mid-tribulation time period. I saw millions of people being destroyed and all sorts of catastrophes happing all over the world. I saw the Beast System in full swing, it’s leaders and commanders. I had seen enough so I wanted to close the screen out. I kept hitting the X with the mouse (15-20 times in rapid secession) but every time I would hit the X the screen would pop back up again. I was getting frustrated because I couldn’t exit the page, then a voice said, Your Not Getting Out.. I had to set there and watch the activities of the Tribulation Times. Needless to say I was totally disappointed and my heart sank because I thought I would escape the Tribulation Period. Hello, Amos! Edited by dinosaur, Jun 25 2008, 07:08 AM.



Shershalom	Jun 24 2008, 02:02 PM Post #19
Advanced Member Posts: 612 Group: Advanced Members Member #810 Joined: March 20, 2007	"Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord GOD, That I will send a famine on the land, Not a famine of bread, Nor a thirst for water, But of hearing the words of the LORD. They shall wander from sea to sea, And from north to east; They shall run to and fro, seeking the word of the LORD, But shall not find it." AMOS 8:11-12, Prophet of YHVH
	SherShalom "Blessed is HE that comes in the NAME of the LORD." MATTHEW 23:39


Wil	Jun 25 2008, 12:30 AM Post #20
Administrator Posts: 9,531 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: September 21, 2005	I do not think believe in a position other than a pre-trib rapture is a sign of that prophecy being fulfilled, there is some scriptural evidence for it as there are for all the views, I myself was leaning towards post until the Lord spoke to me. Now whether myself or Amos (Issachar is Scaggs dinosaur) heard accurately from the Lord time will tell, though in reality it really doesn't make a difference, ones relationship with Jesus is all that matters and that will make a difference in this life.



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