PROOF OF RAPTURE

We hope you enjoy your visit.

You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.

Join our community!

If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Pages:
1
2
3
4

PROOF OF RAPTURE
Topic Started: Sep 27 2005, 11:46 AM (1,962 Views)
shalom	Jul 15 2008, 09:28 AM Post #61
Newbie Posts: 9 Group: Members Member #4,790 Joined: July 14, 2008	Amen, yeah I hear 1 Thess thrown out all the time. We need to remember the word rapture did not come into play until about 100 years ago. We need to embrace all of God's word, not just parts we want too. Shalom, debbi



MoreofHim	Jul 15 2008, 10:33 AM Post #62
Advanced Member Posts: 545 Group: Members Member #834 Joined: March 24, 2007	Yes Shalom amen! I've read many fanciful interpretations of God's word from those who profess His name... our bookstores and churches are lined with the merchandise (oil) of those who sell. Those who exalt their wisdom above the knowledge of God. But His foolish sheep... rather than putting their faith in God's word and being led by His Spirit that leads them into all truth... His sheep run to "men" of wisdom to buy... believing in their words, in their carnal interpretations and their anti-christ doctrines. "If I come in my Father's name, Ye receive me not, but if another come in his own name, Him ye shall receive." John 5:43 The hour is very late and there is not much time left to sober up. The Lord is coming IN THE DESTRUCTION. There have been prophecies that speak of the sudden change that is coming. IN ONE HOUR. That will change the whole world. We know from God's word that Jesus will come SUDDENLY and HE will be bringing DESTRUCTION... His children of light are sober and will not be caught unaware. Those in darkness (deception) will be caught unaware because they trusted in their deception. We know from God's word that the deceived ones will be a great company. This earth is not going to be very peaceful for much longer, so we can deduct that His coming is very, very near. When destruction comes... the false prophets will be destroyed so they will not be selling their merchandise any longer... so this DAY of buying (oil) is not future. IT IS NOW. There will be no selling later. Rather than leaning on our own understandings or exalting your deceptions above one another... how about turning your focus inward and humbling yourself before the Lord your God to see if you will be counted worthy to escape ON THAT DAY. Amen? I think we all agree that the Lord will deliver His own. No debate there. But the argument is really... ARE YOU HIS - DO YOU KNOW HIM? Only half of the wise virgins could find the bridegroom in the darkness. The others, never knew Him.
	Quote: "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways, And that we may walk in His paths." Isaiah 2:3


Shershalom	Jul 15 2008, 11:12 AM Post #63
Advanced Member Posts: 610 Group: Members Member #810 Joined: March 20, 2007	John 14:1-3 1 Let not your heart be troubled, you believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Fathers house are many mansions. If it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
	SherShalom "Blessed is HE that comes in the NAME of the LORD." MATTHEW 23:39


roadtozion	Jul 25 2008, 01:52 PM Post #64
Advanced Member Posts: 116 Group: Members Member #1,511 Joined: July 12, 2007	MoreofHim Jul 15 2008, 07:51 AM It is so refreshing to hear a "faithful servant" use the word of God, rather than the opinions and imaginations of men to illustrate God's plan. The Book of Revelation was written to and for the CHURCH. I was once pre-trib. I could quote Hal Lindsey with the best of them. The problem is, his ideas just don't hold water. Without his carefully crafted explainations, Scripture simply DOS NOT SUPPORT the pre-tribulation position. There is NOT ONE place where the plain text of the Bible says there will be a pre-tribulation rapture. Jesus said "In this world you WILL have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." Quote: The purpose of the pre-Trib Rapture is not to protect us from persecution, per se--its purpose is to protect us from God's wrath! God established a precedent for that protection when He protected Noah and his family, and later on, Lot and his family. We are not appointed to wrath. When God poured out his wrath in curses on Egypt, His people were protected from it right there in Egypt. The Angel of Death 'passed over' because of the covering of the blood of the passover lamb. In the same way: And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Rev 12:10-11 Noah was protected in the ark - not taken to heaven. Same with Lot. Both were taken / given a place of refuge within the world. One has to wonder why God put Noah to all that trouble if He could have just zapped him out then put him back when it was all over. But God doesn't work that way. Quote: If you don't believe in the Rapture, you'd better tell that to the Apostle Paul, shalom. Because he did. He predicted it in his first letter to the Thessalonians, and he would not have done that unless Jesus had first given that information to him. So it will happen--that's a done deal. Sorry, but the Apostle Paul would have been the first to tell you that God doesn't take you out of the world when things get ugly. He warned in his second letter to the Thessolonians (Chapter 2) of the falling away - apostacy - that would come first, and the man of sin would be revealed before "that the day of Christ" the "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him" As for the first letter: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thess 4:13-18 This is fulfilled in Rev 20:4-6 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." There are no *PHASES* of resurrection - there is only the *FIRST* resurrection and the Great White Throne - just as Paul said.
	Take heed that no man deceive you. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:


Robert	Oct 18 2008, 08:39 PM Post #65
Member Posts: 61 Group: Members Member #4,713 Joined: May 30, 2008	MOH says: The Book of Revelation was written to and for the CHURCH. To use your method below, there is not one place where it says the Revelation or the seven letters were written to the present assembly of Christ. You can never prove a positive with a negative. To use your method, we could also say that there is no need to believe in salvation by the blood of Christ because Paul never once mentions it to the Galatians. There is NOT ONE place where the plain text of the Bible says there will be a pre-tribulation rapture. Nor is there one place where it says there will not, or that it will be at the end of the tribulation. To speak of His Second Advent and admission into the kingdom as the prophets did, it is entirely out of the question that they were speaking of the rapture of the church. The prophets and the Lord (Matt. 24:27; Lk. 17:24, 30) spoke of His coming to earth and appearing visibly to people on earth (Rev. 1:7, where every eye will see Him because the earth is where the judgments will be to determine who enters the kingdom that has already been established at that time (Dan. 7:13 14; Matt. 13:38 43; 24:30; 26:64; Lk. 21:27; Col. 3:4; 2 Thess. 1:7 8). Paul always speaks of our being with the Lord when He returns, and is revealed to the people on earth. He told the Colossians of Christ's coming (appearing) on earth to establish the kingdom: �When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory� (3:4). Here it is plain that he is speaking of the Lord�s appearing to people on earth when every eye will see Him (Rev. 1:7) with His bride the church. That being true, then there is no way to deny the truth that the rapture would have to transpire before that coming and His revelation. There was the Apostles counsel in Jerusalem to settle some issues raised by Pharisees that were causing confusion in the Jewish church, as well as in Gentile churches later established by Paul. At that counsel James says that at this present time God is taking out of the Gentiles a people for His name. And then adds, �After this,� God will begin the rebuilding of David�s kingdom which has fallen down. Paul says the same thing in Rom. 11:25-26 that blindness in part has happened to Israel �until� the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Meaning this present age that ends with the rapture, and �then� all Israel will be saved. Of course the �all� is the 1/3 of Zech. 13:8-9 that will survive the tribulation. When Paul says then �all Israel� will be saved, he is continuing his remarks from Rom. 11:5 where he speaks of even at that time a remnant is being saved, but then, after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in at the rapture, all Israel will be saved. Here it is plain that God intends to bring the church and present Dispensation of Grace to a conclusion before the beginning of the re-establishment of the kingdom of Israel. That time of rebuilding the kingdom of David is identical to Daniel�s 70th week and the 7 years tribulation period will begin immediately after the rapture. When James says after, he has finished taking out of the Gentiles a people for His name; it is evident that the present Dispensation of Grace has suddenly ended. When the last believer in this age receives the Holy Spirit is when the rapture occurs and the fullness or complete number of Gentiles has come in. Jesus said "In this world you WILL have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." Jesus was speaking to His disciples before the New Testament ever began. Not did He ever speak directly of the present church. Remember, Paul said this dispensation, his gospel and the rapture were mysteries. In His grace Robert Edited by Robert, Oct 18 2008, 10:04 PM.



Dave-BNBIH	Oct 18 2008, 08:53 PM Post #66
Advanced Member Posts: 622 Group: Advanced Members Member #2,399 Joined: December 16, 2007	Robert:-} Just one little boo-boo:-} your quote/ Of course the �all� is the 1/3 of Zech. 13:8-9 that will survive the tribulation. /quote Robert. You forgot to subtract the 1/2 that are taken at the approx. mid-point of Daniel's 70th.wk. to safety for 3.5yrs. This is kind of 'cool' in a 'numbery' sort of way,,for God keeps the sixth-part for Himself. Only 1/6 of 'todays' Children of Israel will survive until they inherit Abraham's Promise.
	Selah! Shalom! MYITAUT! Beloved Noble Bright/Illustrious House Servant of the Most High God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Father and God of our Savior, Lord, and Great High Priest, Jesus of Nazareth:-)


Robert	Oct 18 2008, 09:03 PM Post #67
Member Posts: 61 Group: Members Member #4,713 Joined: May 30, 2008	Hey Dave I think I will stick with Zech. He seems to know what he is saying. Robert



Robert	Oct 18 2008, 09:17 PM Post #68
Member Posts: 61 Group: Members Member #4,713 Joined: May 30, 2008	Hi Shalom Many of the opponents of the teaching of the rapture say it is a new thing, a new invention by the Dispensationalists beginning in the 19th century. That it was not taught by anyone in the early church or by any of the established churches since then. Without realizing it they are making the point emphasized here, we do not make our doctrine from church teaching. That is where all the confusion began, and the same problem is still with us today in the arapture position. If the rapture teaching began yesterday because someone found it in the Scriptures, does that mean it�s not believable or untrue? The trouble with most church doctrine comes from following the mistakes of the early church. Yet we are to believe that because the rapture is not found in their writing that is proof that it is not taught in the bible. As to no rapture teaching in the ancient church, the discovery of what is plainly a reference to the rapture. Grant Jeffrey of Grant Jeffrey Ministries discovered the teaching about the pretriblulation rapture. It was found in the writings of what is said to be written in 393 AD by a Syrian church leader named Ephraem in a document called �Sermon by Pseudo Ephraem,� entitled �On the last times, the Anti-Christ and the end of the World.� The statement by Ephraem that Grant Jeffery in particular brings attention to is as follows. "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." With the exception of who the person of Christ was, hardly anything can be found in the early church writings in the way of sound doctrine. So far as systematic theology is concerned, and especially eschatology, it was practically non-existent. That was because of their method of teaching, and is still the method used today by most of what is called Christendom, and especially those who deny the rapture. They follow precisely the same method of teaching of those who couldn�t tell the difference between the rapture and the Second Advent judgments, and then complain that the early church didn�t teach it. To turn that around, the early church didn�t teach the rapture because they use the same method of teaching that today�s Arapturists� use. In His grace Robert



GoingUp!	Oct 18 2008, 09:56 PM Post #69
Advanced Member Posts: 149 Group: Members Member #2,400 Joined: December 16, 2007	Enoch was Raptured Before the Flood The Ark is symbolic of Petra to the Jews God shut the door on it none could open God will shut the door to Petra none will open it!
	1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: KNOW YOUR ENEMY! IF THEY CAN'T CONFESS: "I CONFESS JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH" YOU "KNOW" THEY ARE THE ENEMY


Robert	Oct 20 2008, 02:30 PM Post #70
Member Posts: 61 Group: Members Member #4,713 Joined: May 30, 2008	Hi GoingUp I don't quite understand you when you said: The Ark is symbolic of Petra to the Jews God shut the door on it none could open God will shut the door to Petra none will open it! Robert



GoingUp!	Oct 26 2008, 07:56 PM Post #71
Advanced Member Posts: 149 Group: Members Member #2,400 Joined: December 16, 2007	THEN EXPLAIN ENOCH WHO WAS PRIOR TO THE FLOOD AND HAD NO FORGIVENESS OF SINS LIKE WE DID, YET WAS TAKEN TO HEAVEN, ENOCH IS THE RAPTURE, THE ARK IS ISRAEL PROTECTED SUPERNATURALLY BY GOD, THE FLOOD IS THE TRIBULATION GoingUp no need to shout especially since Robert agrees with you on the pre-trib rapture. He just wasn't seeing exactly what you were trying to say.
	1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: KNOW YOUR ENEMY! IF THEY CAN'T CONFESS: "I CONFESS JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH" YOU "KNOW" THEY ARE THE ENEMY


locboxx	Oct 26 2008, 09:32 PM Post #72
Advanced Member Posts: 290 Group: Members Member #4,912 Joined: September 27, 2008	Wil Jun 1 2008, 01:23 AM According to the letters to the churches in Revelation though it will be only believers who are are in the right spiritual condition who will be counted worthy to escape the judgment of God on the earth. So I cannot agree with your statement Kathy. there are none righteous not even one. none of us deserve to be raptured. but we are not appointed to wrath either, we are saved by grace and a major theme of the Bible is God saving the righteous before judgement. since we arent righteous Jesus' blood washed us clean so we could escape God's wrath. am i on the right track of thinking?
	My Blog on the end times and Rapture.


Wil	Oct 26 2008, 09:45 PM Post #73
Administrator Posts: 9,513 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: September 21, 2005	The Rev. letters pretty clearly state that there will be believers who will have to endure the judgments of God loc, note that these haven't lost their salvation though, but rather their heart condition requires them going thru the ultimate wake up call.



kgreen20	Oct 26 2008, 10:08 PM Post #74
Advanced Member Posts: 1,648 Group: Advanced Members Member #96 Joined: January 7, 2006	"The New Protestant Purgatory," as Hal Lindsey called it. Jesus' death isn't enough to cleanse us from sin and fit us for Heaven; we have to suffer unless we're spiritual enough in our walk as Christians to deserve otherwise. That's what the Catholics believe; hence their belief in purgatory. A partial Rapture is based on the same concept. Both are a contradiction of salvation by grace through faith. Edited by kgreen20, Oct 26 2008, 10:09 PM.



Wil	Oct 26 2008, 10:15 PM Post #75
Administrator Posts: 9,513 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: September 21, 2005	What I stated is nothing like the purgatory belief, and completely biblical. If you or Hal Kathy can explain the Rev. letters please do so, my mind is always open.



Robert	Oct 27 2008, 12:25 PM Post #76
Member Posts: 61 Group: Members Member #4,713 Joined: May 30, 2008	Hi Will, You say: What I stated is nothing like the purgatory belief, and completely biblical. If you or Hal Kathy can explain the Rev. letters please do so, my mind is always open. I will have to agree with Kgreen and Hal about the purgatory biz. That is precisely what the partial rapture teaches. There are many other problems with the belief that part of His bride will be left and go into the tribulation, but that will have to wait for another post. The problem with you and Hal Linsay is, the assemblies (not churches) are Jewish assemblies and has nothing to do with the present assembly of Christ. There is nothing in the letters that teaches what Paul taught about salvation in this dispensation. That is the reason why 7 times we read about they must overcome by enduring to the end to be saved. Whereas, we have already overcome in Christ and been delivered from the power of darkness and are already in the Sons kingdom of light. The people in the letters are those who will or will not be admitted into the kingdom on earth. That is why they who overcome (Rev. 2:7) are promised to eat of the tree of life. The tree of life is for mortals who are earthbound and will go into the kingdom on earth and reproduce to replenish the earth. Those in heaven do not marry or reproduce. As I have showed in other posts, the whole book of Rev. is about the tribulation and beyond. Does Christ need the tree of life? That's preposterous. Then why would we? We will live and be changed to immortals by His Spirit who dwells in us and thereby give us a body exactly like His and suitable for heaven since as Paul told the Corinthians, this present body cannot reproduce a spiritual body. So long as we believe the Revelation assemblies are the present church, the confusion will continue. In His grace Robert Edited by Robert, Oct 27 2008, 12:27 PM.



Wil	Oct 28 2008, 08:53 PM Post #77
Administrator Posts: 9,513 Group: Admin Member #1 Joined: September 21, 2005	Quote: I will have to agree with Kgreen and Hal about the purgatory biz. That is precisely what the partial rapture teaches. Purgatory contradicts Heb. 9:27 while non-belief in a partial rapture is based on a dispensational view of scripture that is quite debatable and of which I don't agree with. Quote: The problem with you and Hal Linsay is, the assemblies (not churches) are Jewish assemblies and has nothing to do with the present assembly of Christ. There is nothing in the letters that teaches what Paul taught about salvation in this dispensation. That is the reason why 7 times we read about they must overcome by enduring to the end to be saved. Paul and the rest of the NT writers continually taught that enduring to the end is a reality of our walk, but this is a eternal security question that we are also in disagreement about, and that I do not want to get into at this time. Quote: So long as we believe the Revelation assemblies are the present church, the confusion will continue. I believe the letters had tri audiences, the first century church, believers thru all the ages for a statement on spiritual conditions and endtime believers warning them to be in that right condition or they will have to face the hour of testing that will come on the earth(Rev. 3:10) that the chapters immediately after procede to describe. As for the argument that Rev.3:10 occured in the time of that Phil. church I don't see any record in history of it being the case, to the whole world or in the Roman empire. So it's pretty clear to me that it was referring to the endtime believer.



1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)


« Previous Topic · Bible Discussions · Next Topic »

Pages:
1
2
3
4