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| PROOF OF RAPTURE | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 27 2005, 11:46 AM (1,961 Views) | |
| METHUSELAH | Jun 2 2008, 05:43 PM Post #21 |
METHUSELAH
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In Re: "Worthy to Escape", I believe this is a merciful motivational plea. Yes, we should strive to be the best that we can be, but I'm not buying the "Left Behind" fad that implies that if there IS a rapture and one "misses the bus" due to a lack of preparation, then one is doomed for all time. This is NOT a dealbreaker in terms of salvation and deliverance.The rapture theory is merely an issue of timing, not eternal destiny. A bit later in History those who have exhausted the Grace of God in this matter (read: evil men & women) will face the wrath of the Lord. IMO these reprobates are those who never were and never will (would) be His. |
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| JeepThang | Jun 3 2008, 06:21 AM Post #22 |
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Seems to me that if someone is "saved" by Jesus when one dies and goes to Heaven, then why wouldn't the same apply to Rapture? Its just skipping the "dying" part. Without Jesus, none of humanity is worthy. With Jesus, we can approach the throne. What gives these two events (death & Rapture) different qualifiers? Seriously. If there is a different rule-set, lemme know. Time's about up. Edited by JeepThang, Jun 3 2008, 06:23 AM.
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| kgreen20 | Jun 3 2008, 10:51 AM Post #23 |
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Nothing does, Jeep Thang. The same requirements apply to both. The Rapture is the end of the Church Age. That is the moment when all Christians, dead and alive, will be given new resurrection bodies and caught up to be with the Lord. Those who are dead will be resurrected, and those who are alive will be Raptured. There is no behavioral requirement for receiving a new body--that's part of the salvation package. Edited by kgreen20, Jun 3 2008, 10:52 AM.
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| Wil | Jun 3 2008, 11:27 AM Post #24 |
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You guys are misunderstanding, christians left behind have not lost their salvation, but because of their lukewarmness and deadness will now have to face the ultimate wake-up call. This to me is the clear message of the Rev. letters, which is backed up by other passages such as Luke 21:36. As for a pre-trib rapture being elitism Methus. the trib/wrath period is for the purpose of God's final judgment on the ungodly, there is no purpose for those who have loved Him and His appearing to have to be here for it. |
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| kgreen20 | Jun 3 2008, 11:49 AM Post #25 |
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Wil, are you aware of the differences between the Church Age and the Age of the Law? One of those differences is that when we accept Jesus, the Holy Spirit takes up residence inside us. He indwells us and seals us, acts as a deposit or down payment, so to speak, thus ensuring our eventual complete salvation. He's also there to empower us when needed. The Old Testament believer had no such guarantee. The Holy Spirit only indwelled and empowered certain people who were called to certain ministries. He could always be withdrawn, if the person sinned. Thus, David's plea that God would not take His Holy Spirit from David after he committed adultery and murder. He knew that God could always take the Holy Spirit back, thus rejecting David. Salvation was conditional in those days. When the Church is taken out in the Rapture, the Church Age will be finished, and with it, the promises that are unique to the Church. The Holy Spirit will return to His Old Testament ministry of indwelling only those who are called to special ministries, such as the 144,000 Jewish evangelists. That means that any true believer in Christ who was left behind in the Rapture would lose the Holy Spirit and would have to gain Him--and that believer's salvation--back. That would violate God's promises to the Church. God's unique ministry through the Church and His Old Testament ministry through Israel cannot co-exist--that's why the Rapture can't be delayed till the Tribulation's end. That's also why there cannot be a partial Rapture. Because that's tantamount to saying that God can and will take His Holy Spirit out of any believer who's backslidden, thus leaving him in a lost condition once more. The Holy Spirit's ministry of indwelling and sealing the believer for salvation cannot continue in a dispensation when only certain believers will be indwelt by Him, and when salvation will be conditional and thus subject to being lost. Edited by kgreen20, Jun 3 2008, 12:01 PM.
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| MichaelInHisService | Jun 3 2008, 01:16 PM Post #26 |
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What is this age of the law? Sin is lawlessness..meaning that sin is the breaking of God's law. The law now is, or should be, written on our hearts. What the jews did by following words on a stone we now listen to the Holy Spirit to guide and direct us and keep us from sinning..breaking God's law. Also for people to say that jews aren't part of the bride is heresy. What about the jewish apostles and their jewish converts? The new covenant was for the jews and the gentiles. the Lord in his great mercy allowed the gentiles to come to knowledge of the truth. this knowledge was brought primarily by jews in the beginning as the apostle Paul was sent to the gentiles to bring them to Christ. In Messiah, Michael |
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Isaiah 26:9 At night my soul longs for You, Indeed, my spirit within me seeks You diligently; For when the earth experiences Your judgments The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness. | |
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| Robert | Jun 3 2008, 03:31 PM Post #27 |
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Hey Wil and others Here are some thoughts from a book I just wrote having to do with the rapture and a cut from it about those left behind. There are those who teach the error that those who have heard the gospel but refused to repent and turn to Christ will have another chance after the rapture though they will possibly face martyrdom. They with good intentions believe and say that many are good people who have just not got around to making a decision to put their faith in Christ and God will give them a chance after the rapture to come to Christ. Of those who have heard and understood the gospel, yet refused to put their faith and trust in Christ for whatever reason and are left behind, there is no salvation. Noah warned the people of his day of coming destruction. It is said of Noah that he was a preacher of righteousness (2 Pet. 2:5). And no doubt some believed him but couldn’t see any change in the weather and said, well, I’ll think about it, just before the flood came and took them all away. When the Lord determined to destroy the earth in the flood it seems that the building of the ark took one hundred and twenty years during which time Noah preached of coming disaster to no avail. And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he [is] indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years” (Gen. 6:3). The Lord said of that time and His return: But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. "For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, “and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be” (Matt. 24:37-39). Speaking of the Antichrist, and will those left behind when the rapture occurs have another chance to be saved. Paul said: The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusions, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness (2 thess. 2:9-12). The lie is that the lawless one is God, who “…sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God” (2 Thess. 2:4). Of those who refused “…the love of the truth that they might be saved,…” The Lord said: “He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad” (Matt. 13:21; Lk. 11:23). Of course those who believe but have friends and especially family members and relatives who are not Christian want to believe that those left behind will have another chance. But we cannot ignore the sure words of Scripture on which our understanding must be established. According to Paul, those who have heard the gospel and still not accepted Christ at the time of the rapture will be left behind. He says God will send them strong delusions and they will believe that lie. They will believe the Antichrist is God and savior of the world and be condemned forever without hope. Some say they just haven’t made a decision, but they have. To not receive Him is to refuse Him. Maybe it will help. In His grace Robert |
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| kgreen20 | Jun 3 2008, 04:43 PM Post #28 |
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Robert, if that were true, where would the "multitude too great to be numbered" come from? That multitude will come from every nation, tribe, language, etc. I find it very hard to swallow that a numberless multitude all over the world has not heard the Gospel by this time! I find it even harder to swallow that failing to accept Christ before the Rapture would count as an unpardonable sin afterward. The only unpardonable sin that the Bible teaches some will be guilty of, during the Tribulation, is accepting the Mark of the Beast and worshipping his statue. Until a person does that, he still has a chance to repent and turn to Christ for salvation. Remember, the Book of Revelation speaks of people refusing to repent. You can't refuse to do something unless you have the option of doing so, to begin with. Kathy G |
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| METHUSELAH | Jun 3 2008, 07:35 PM Post #29 |
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Wil, I do understand the difference between elitism and the elect. What I am saying is that the rigid and as yet unsubstantiated view of some who have posted on this thread gives the appearance or implication of elitism. kgreen's post of 7:49 am today is a good example of believers who claim authenticated knowledge of matters that have NOT been explicitly stated in the Scriptures. The false note of aloof authority has an unloving ring to it. IMO these issues can be discussed with more humility and without a spirit of 'dismissal' to those who do not toe the party line. . 
Edited by METHUSELAH, Jun 3 2008, 07:37 PM.
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| SpiritIsWilling | Jun 3 2008, 08:18 PM Post #30 |
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Really didn't want to add my to this thread, but I agree with Wil. I just can't see everybody going in the rapture, meaning anyone living in unconfessed and unrepentant sin when He comes. The rapture IMO is a picture of Lot and his wife. She loved Sodom (the world) so much that she looked back and was destroyed right along with it. Plus the parable of the ten virgins, (which I already know that some will say it does not apply to the Bride but to Israel) all heard the cry, but not all were able to enter. In the end, it all comes down to the whole eternal security doctrine 
Edited by SpiritIsWilling, Jun 3 2008, 08:20 PM.
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Matthew 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 
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| kgreen20 | Jun 3 2008, 09:33 PM Post #31 |
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Everybody won't, no! LOL. Only those who have accepted Christ's free gift of salvation. Much as it might stick in some people's craw to admit it (not including you, SpiritIsWilling  ), salvation is a free gift during this dispensation, offered by grace through faith. It is not by works, lest any man should boast. And that principle applies to the Rapture as well as to entrance into Heaven in death. None of us have any reason for boasting that we were good enough, Spirit-filled enough, obedient to God enough, etc., to merit taking part in the Rapture. Only the blood of Jesus covering us makes us fit for Heaven, hence for being Raptured.Edited by kgreen20, Jun 3 2008, 10:50 PM.
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| METHUSELAH | Jun 4 2008, 03:38 AM Post #32 |
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kgreen20, You were doing SO well there until you got to the part ", hence for being raptured." The final phrase you added is merely your opinion at this point in time and should not be presented as fact.
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| Wil | Jun 4 2008, 10:34 AM Post #33 |
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That is simply one view that cannot be 100 percent substantiated by scripture, though I believe in a pre-trib rapture I do not believe there is any age of law and grace involved involved in it, most especially disagree that the Holy Spirit will ever leave anybody who has genuinely accepted Jesus (unless they willfully choose to reject Him for all time) because they are in a backslidden state. As Michael said the age of the Law completely ended at the cross, never to return, I cannot find one scripture that says otherwise. |
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| Wil | Jun 4 2008, 10:41 AM Post #34 |
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Robert the way I see this the days of Noah analogy refers to the attitude of the people that won't be raptured, I don't think a definite conclusion that nobody will have a chance to be saved after the rapture can be drawn from it. |
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| SpiritIsWilling | Jun 4 2008, 11:51 AM Post #35 |
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Matthew 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
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| Robert | Jun 11 2008, 01:18 PM Post #36 |
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Will says: Robert the way I see this the days of Noah analogy refers to the attitude of the people that won't be raptured, I don't think a definite conclusion that nobody will have a chance to be saved after the rapture can be drawn from it. Wil Speaking of the Antichrist, and will those left behind when the rapture occurs have another chance to be saved. Paul said: The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusions, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness (2 thess. 2:9-12). Paul says it was because they did not receive the love of the truth, which is a sure indicatior that they had heard it. Again, he said the reason they were blinded was "because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved." That was the reason I mentioned the people of Noah's day. They heard Noah but refused the truth. Of course the lie is that the lawless one is God, who “…sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God” (2 Thess. 2:4). Of those who refused “…the love of the truth that they might be saved,…” The Lord said: “He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad” (Matt. 13:21; Lk. 11:23). Of course those who believe but have friends and especially family members and relatives who are not Christian want to believe that those left behind will have another chance. But we cannot ignore the sure words of Scripture on which our understanding must be established. According to Paul, those who have heard the gospel and still not accepted Christ at the time of the rapture will be left behind. He says God will send them strong delusions and they will believe that lie. They will believe the Antichrist is God and savior of the world and be condemned forever without hope. Some say they just haven’t made a decision, but they have. To not receive Him is to refuse Him. The problem and danger of saying those left behind is believing one doesn't have to believe now since they will have another chance after the rapture when Paul is very plain that they will not. It's the same as saying tha after one dies they will have anothe chance to accept the gospel. It 's not going to happen. In His grace Robert Edited by Robert, Jun 11 2008, 01:26 PM.
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| kgreen20 | Jun 11 2008, 02:41 PM Post #37 |
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Robert, if I'm misunderstanding you here, forgive me. But what I hear you saying is that no one who has heard the Gospel before the Rapture will get a second chance afterward--it'll be an unpardonable sin. If that were the case, where would the "multitude too great to be numbered" coming out of every nation, tribe, language, etc., come from? I find it very hard to swallow that a numberless multitude still exists who has not heard the Gospel--it's been preached in too many places now, all over the world. Besides, what would be the point of the 144,000 Israeli evangelists and the 2 witnesses if only people who had never heard the Gospel could still be saved? Everyone else may as well accept the mark and worship the Antichrist and have done with it, since they're beyond all hope anyway. I don't believe that. Failing to accept Christ before we're caught up will not be an unpardonable sin afterward! It just won't be. The only unpardonable sin that the Bible speaks of, that people will commit after the Church is gone, is accepting the Mark of the Beast and worshipping his statue. Anyone who does that will be doomed to Hell. But until they do that, they still have a chance to be saved. Tragically, the majority of the remaining population will refuse to accept that chance, but a multitude John couldn't number will decide to accept it. They will have to pay dearly for their salvation, and they'll have to work to stay saved (unlike us), since the Holy Spirit won't be indwelling and sealing them for salvation as He does for us. But salvation will still be an option. Kathy G. Edited by kgreen20, Jun 11 2008, 02:42 PM.
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| Robert | Jun 11 2008, 03:53 PM Post #38 |
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Kathy says: Robert, if I'm misunderstanding you here, forgive me. But what I hear you saying is that no one who has heard the Gospel before the Rapture will get a second chance afterward--it'll be an unpardonable sin. Kathy In The Rapture and the churches of Rev. 2-3 I have already answered your question when I answered heluvsme. I answered Wil above and said: Speaking of the Antichrist, and will those left behind when the rapture occurs have another chance to be saved. Paul said: The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusions, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness (2 thess. 2:9-12). Paul says it was because they did not receive the love of the truth, which is a sure indicator that they had heard it. Again, he said the reason they were blinded was "because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved." That was the reason I mentioned the people of Noah's day. They heard Noah but refused the truth. Of course the lie is that the lawless one is God, who “…sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God” (2 Thess. 2:4). Of those who refused “…the love of the truth that they might be saved,…” The Lord said: “He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad” (Matt. 13:21; Lk. 11:23). There are untold millions who have not heard or understood the Paul's gospel of grace who will be left after the rapture. They will hear the gospel of the kingdom (Matt. 24.14) when it is again preached for the third and last time (Matt. 22:8-10) to all the world. An untold number of those gentiles left will be martyrs is seen in heaven (Rev. 7:9) and yet in the judgments of Matt. 13 and 25 still there are those who will survive and be judged and either rejected or admitted into the kingdom that is established at that time. Yes according to Paul it will. It will be the same as in the days of Noah when God shut Noah and family into the ark. You ask; …what would be the point of the 144,000 Israeli evangelists and the 2 witnesses if only people who had never heard the Gospel could still be saved? Everyone else may as well accept the mark and worship the Antichrist and have done with it, since they're beyond all hope anyway. As I said: the kingdom message will be preached to those who have never heard of understood Paul’s gospel of grace. It seems like you missed Paul’s statement above (2 Thess. 2:9-12) and my remarks on the same. Please read them again. In His grace Robert |
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| kgreen20 | Jun 11 2008, 11:52 PM Post #39 |
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In some Third World countries, that is probably true--that there are still many who have not heard the Gospel yet. But in every nation, tribe, all over the world? At this point, highly unlikely! And the Book of Revelation does not say that they will come only from what we would label, today, as Third World countries. It says they will come from "every nation, tribe, people, and language." I will hunt down the specific passages and post them here. First, though, there is another passage I want to post first. The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts. (Revelation 9:20-21) Note what the passage says--it says they did not repent. The implication appears to be that they refused to do so. Think about this, Robert: you can't refuse to do something that's not an option to begin with. Now for the passage I mentioned above. The italics will be mine. After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying: "Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!" Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?" I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, "they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." (Revelation 7:9-17) A hundred years ago, it might have been possible for a numberless multitude all over the world to have neve heard the plan of salvation. It is impossible that such a thing should be the case now. As I said, that might still be the case in some poor countries--especially in countries that are closed to the Gospel--but not in every country on this planet. And the passage clearly states that the people will come from every country in the world. Furthermore, Revelation speaks of people refusing to repent. That tells me that repentance will still be an option--at least, until people die or receive the mark of the beast--and that many who have already heard the plan of salvation will decide to act on it after we're gone. You can't refuse to do something if you're not allowed to do it anyway. Kathy G. Edited by kgreen20, Jun 11 2008, 11:53 PM.
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| Issachar | Jun 12 2008, 06:55 AM Post #40 |
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Be careful what you really believe in. 10 out of the 12 tribes of Israel worshiped the Golden Calf (the beast) and called it Jehovah (God). What is you golden calf that you believe in that doesn’t bear fruit. Remember, History repeats |
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