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| PROOF OF RAPTURE | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 27 2005, 11:46 AM (1,934 Views) | |
| j-Z | Sep 27 2005, 11:46 AM Post #1 |
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This is moved from the rapture madness thread... I've seen these 2 verses before but i see them differently today. These are used by "pre-tribbers" as proof for a "rapture" of the Church. The only trumpets i recall sounding are the trumpets in the tribulation. More specifically - it says the "last trumpet". In the Luke verse - it looks like the point is to keep your eyes on the Lord and pray for His continual help in all things that come to pass in your life. My question to any pre-tribber, is when is the last trumpet? What Biblical proof do you go by in determining when that should happen. This change, in the twinkling of an eye, according to this verse, won't happen until the last trumpet sounds. If this deserves a new topic or if it doesn't ever deserve to be addressed - i'll leave that up to you all. I've seemed to have forgotten most of the verses of proof. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. Luke 21:36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man." |
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| Deleted User | Sep 27 2005, 12:50 PM Post #2 |
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I have read that 'the last trumpet' is blown at the end of Rosh HaShana. A whole lot of searching is needed on other boards where Rosh HaShana is discussed in great length, to prove this point. Sounds good to me. I don't have time to go searching for this. . but it is a good start.  found this page..at Google.. http://www.clarion-call.org/yeshua/feasts/rosh/hashana.htm which explains all about it... |
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| Deleted User | Sep 27 2005, 12:59 PM Post #3 |
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and this excerpt from another site at Google. [In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor 15:52)] "When the Shofar is blown on Rosh HaShana, three different types of noises are sounded. The first is a 'teki'ah.' This sound is one long continuous burst. The second sound is called a 'shevarim.' It consists of three shorter blasts. The third sound is the 'teruah.' The teruah is a set of nine short bursts of sound, a staccato blast. The Gemora in Rosh HaShana tells us that these later two sounds are meant to sound like crying: '. . . drawing a long sigh. . . uttering short piercing cries.' The Ben Ish Chai writes that these sounds are meant to contrast with the tekiah. The tekiah, he explains, is a sound of triumph and joy, while the shevarim and teruah are sounds of pain and suffering. Because of the opposing feelings they represent, when one blows the shofar, he is not to connect the tekiah with the others, by blowing the sounds with the same breath." This is the only day in the whole year that was referred to as the hidden day or the day that no man knows. [But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (Matt 24:36)] The trumpet is blown throughout Elul (the month before Rosh HaShanah) except for the last day. The trumpet is silent because much about Rosh HaShanah is concealed and shrouded in mystery and Satan is not to be given notice about the arrival of Rosh HaShanah. |
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| j-Z | Sep 27 2005, 01:08 PM Post #4 |
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thanks! that was quick and painless and explained it very well. question - in your own opinion - if God takes His church away before the tribulation - who will spread His Word among the nations of the world? |
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| j-Z | Sep 27 2005, 01:14 PM Post #5 |
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so your saying that when it is written that "no one knows the day" - it doesn't mean that no one will guess the day - there is actually a hidden meaning that it is Rosh Hashana? |
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| Wil | Sep 27 2005, 01:34 PM Post #6 |
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J, in answer to who will be left to spread the word, it will be those lukewarm and spiritually dead believers who were not counted worthy to escape, I'm sure many of them will be repenting in dust and ashes. Also there are some who believe that 144,000 jewish believers will be around at that time to do this job. And there are of course the two witnesses. Here's a passage of scripture which I was never able to accurately explain away when I was leaning towards the post-trib position, in Matthew 24 it says the taking up will occur at a time that is like the time of Noah, in other words a fairly normal world that will most definitely not be the situation at the end of the trib, I'm sure we can all agree. As for the question of whether believing in a pre-trib rapture is a requirement for being a part of it, I would say most definitely not, as the only requirement is our spiritual state, "be counted worthy" not our doctrinal beliefs. |
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| j-Z | Sep 27 2005, 01:38 PM Post #7 |
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I agree with it all - but are you saying this years Rosh Hashana is the "last trumpet"? |
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| Wil | Sep 27 2005, 01:43 PM Post #8 |
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Not me, though as I've said at other times, I wouldn't be surprised, as the taking up is what the day represents. |
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| Deleted User | Sep 27 2005, 03:44 PM Post #9 |
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The Bible is very clear about the 144,000 Jewish believers from the 12 tribes (which are named in Rev 8: 4-8... some footnotes say they are 'evangelists' ..the Bible calls them 'bondservants of God.') The 2 witnesses (no one knows who they are but wild guesses are Enoch, Elijah, Moses as 3 candidates) will be instrumental in preaching and have miraculous powers.. which are like Elijah's and Moses' powers, in Exodus and I King and 2 Kings. So, as you said, we don't know EXACTLY when.. but can narrow it down to that particular Feast. This has always been my 'take' on the "when" some lovely Autumn day, after Summer has passed. To every thing there is a SEASON. :amen |
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| Kaylyn | Sep 27 2005, 04:18 PM Post #10 |
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I also understand that Angels will have a part in evangelizing. I believe it is in Revelation. I remember a teaching about that somewhere along the line.
I always thought it would have to be Enoch and Elijah as neither of them died. Since it is appointed for man to die once and the two witnesses die this would take Moses out of the equation, in my opinion. :lol: |
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And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. – 2 Corinthians 12:9 | |
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| Wil | Sep 27 2005, 09:24 PM Post #11 |
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I'm not too familiar with that scripture that you're referring to Kaylyn about angels helping to evangelize. Anybody know where it can be found? |
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| Deleted User | Sep 27 2005, 09:37 PM Post #12 |
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Revelation 14: 6 speaks of an" angel flying the midst of heavens having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, kindred, tongue and people."  and this continues into the next few verses.. |
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| Kaylyn | Sep 28 2005, 12:16 AM Post #13 |
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Thanks Summer- girl
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And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. – 2 Corinthians 12:9 | |
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| Robert | May 30 2008, 04:12 PM Post #14 |
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Hi J-Z You said: My question to any pre-tribber, is when is the last trumpet? What Biblical proof do you go by in determining when that should happen. This change, in the twinkling of an eye, according to this verse, won't happen until the last trumpet sounds. In 1 Thess. 4:16 Paul speaks of the voice of the archangel and the trumphet of God, but does not associate the trumphet with anything in the tribulation. As this present dispensation and assembly of Christ was a mystery, so was the rapture because it has to do with the church only. Pete did no start the present assembly of Christ on the Day of Pentecost as we have been taught for 2 millennia. Peter preached or offered for the second time the kingdom to Israel according to Matt. 22:4-7. In His grace Robert Edited by Robert, May 30 2008, 06:04 PM.
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| METHUSELAH | May 30 2008, 06:38 PM Post #15 |
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Why would the Lord leave mediocre, even inferior believers to minister to the survivors of Great Tribulation? Seems to me he'd want his starting team on the floor at that vital point in time... I don't want to hear about the elite being rescued from G.T. as I have always felt that this is only one interpretation of that scriptural basis and certainly not the definitive one. I believe that historical and spiritual precedents (compounded by common sense) would dictate that since the Jews of the OT suffered with the rest of mankind in times of flood, famine and warfare and the early church and the true church of the Middle Ages were not immune to similar hardship, chances are better than even that the chosen servants of our era (gentile believers and Messianic Jews) can expect to "endure to the end" along with everyone else. After all, "God is no respecter of persons". Right? 
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| Wil | May 31 2008, 11:23 AM Post #16 |
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Terry scripture does say though to be make sure that you are among those counted worthy to escape the things coming on the earth, and I'm pretty sure that those believers left behind would no longer be weak and lukewarm once they realize what has happened. |
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| kgreen20 | May 31 2008, 11:24 AM Post #17 |
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If there are any so-called "believers" left behind in the Rapture, then they are believers in name only. Not true born-again Christians. No true believer will be left behind when the trumpet blows, thank the Lord. The Rapture is part of the salvation package; as such, it's offered by grace through faith. |
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| Wil | Jun 1 2008, 01:23 AM Post #18 |
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According to the letters to the churches in Revelation though it will be only believers who are are in the right spiritual condition who will be counted worthy to escape the judgment of God on the earth. So I cannot agree with your statement Kathy. |
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| Robert | Jun 2 2008, 04:13 PM Post #19 |
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Hey Wil I guess I will have to agree with kgreen20. If being caught up in the rapture depends on our righteouness, none of us would go. But we are counted 100 % righteousness in Christ who is our righteouness. The problem is we have been duped again with the translation of ekklesia to church; the same as in Matt. 16:18, when all it means is assembly; any assembly. So John is not speaking to the present assembly of Christ. Please see my post "The Rapture and the Churches of Rev. 2-3." There I think I have showed that those assemblies are Jewish congregations in the tribulation and the things John speaks of are after the rapture has already taken place. As has been pointed out those in Rev. must endure to the end. And that is because the Holy Spirit has already left with the church. So that is the reason they are judged by their works; the same as in Matt. 13 and 25. In fact the speak of the same times and judgments. In His grace Robert |
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| METHUSELAH | Jun 2 2008, 05:34 PM Post #20 |
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Once again, Wil is the man in the middle.  I repeat my comments about elitism and raise the stakes in the name of mercy, which ALWAYS exceeds judgment in God's economy, at least in regard to His people, be they "perfect" or merely saved. The other view in this smacks of smugness and Pharaseeism. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. 
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